Best broodmare (revisited)

[GPK]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Yeah it should be a great race to watch, and a great one to bet. I like English Channel too, but I feel he will probably be overbet in a race with such a great field & I think I will probably get a good price on a horse like Cacique. Hard to know for sure, but I think the tote board will determine the way I play this race more than it does in most races.
If Cacique does win, I really think Hasili will start to get more credit. Intercontinental, Heat Haze, Bank's Hill, and Cacique. Amazing!! I'll take those 4 over the top 4 runners from any other broodmare I can think of in the last 30 years!!

Im gonna bet EC no matter what. Only the odds are gonna dictate how much. Low odds, not alot of money, higher odds, more money. Just wish I knew more about the Euro invadors.

Are we talking best mares currently producing or best broodmares of all time?

For me, almost even more important than being a producer of 5 G1 winners, is being able to produce stakes winners who inturn produce stakes winners. You can be a broodmare of the year but not necessarily be a "bluehen" in my book. Its all about creating a fountain-head of stakes winners that carries over generations.

I look at such notable and fantastic producers such as Dahlia, and although she accomplished so much on the track and in the shed, her daughters werent able to pass on the goods, which is going to prevent her from being a true bluehen.

Hasili's daughters are still young and fully expect them to be top broodmares, so I wont conceed the name "bluehen" onto her yet, but I expect to within 10 years.

[slotdirt]

What about Dear Birdie?

[slotdirt]

Seriously, Balletto, interested in your opinion on this particular topic. You're as well versed in pedigree as just about anybody.

Well, Ellen Parker, who I respect immensely, has designated her as a "reines-de-course", which is the phrase she coined for the female counterparts of chef-de-races. But, in my opinion, I think its too soon to designate her as one.

She's obviously a top producer, but her daughters are going to have to step it up and produce well for me to consider her a bluehen. She's another example of a Broodmare of the Year type (and deservingly so), but I think for her to earn the reines title she was given, her daughters need to carry her legacy in a big way.

I usually agree with almost every aspect of Ellen Parker's idealogy, but this one time it left a little surprised. But then again, she knows a lot more than me, so maybe she sees something I dont.

[slotdirt]

What has become of Bird Town? That should be a good barometer of Dear Birdie, no?

How about Personal Ensign? SHe has to be up there somewhere.

Originally Posted by slotdirt

What has become of Bird Town? That should be a good barometer of Dear Birdie, no?

How about Personal Ensign? SHe has to be up there somewhere.

Personal Ensign has been a monster in the shed and I think its fair to say that her daughters are starting to prove her worth as a bluehen and a Phipps' foundation mare.

And Pedigree Ann def knows her stuff. I've loved her posts. Very informative. Any chance she happens to be Ann Peters? If she is, she has my utmost respect and admiration... big fan.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Balletto

Personal Ensign has been a monster in the shed and I think its fair to say that her daughters are starting to prove her worth as a bluehen and a Phipps' foundation mare.

And Pedigree Ann def knows her stuff. I've loved her posts. Very informative. Any chance she happens to be Ann Peters? If she is, she has my utmost respect and admiration... big fan.

don't know her last name but know she hails from Lexington and has published articles and or books on the subject. Also remember she had something to do with pedigreequery.com.

[dellinger63]

would love to hear a convo between Balletto and Pedigree Ann.

[slotdirt]

I was just reading a pretty fascinating article about Secretariat in relation to breeding. Talk about great broodmare sires....

[1st_Saturday_in_May]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

would love to hear a convo between Balletto and Pedigree Ann.

Lol, I wouldnt have a clue. It would be waaaaaaaaay over my head

[slotdirt]

Throw sumitas in there, and they might as well be speaking Chinese.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Balletto

Are we talking best mares currently producing or best broodmares of all time?

For me, almost even more important than being a producer of 5 G1 winners, is being able to produce stakes winners who inturn produce stakes winners. You can be a broodmare of the year but not necessarily be a "bluehen" in my book. Its all about creating a fountain-head of stakes winners that carries over generations.

Yes I suppose these are two different discussions. In terms of what her offspring have accomplished on the track (not in the shed) I think she is the best "currently producing" mare and may begining to merit discussion among the best of all time. Producing two different BC winners is amazing enough. Then when you add her other quality offspring she amazes me, and she isn't even done!! Who knows what a great horse like Cacique will accomplish the remainder of the year and what else she will produce.

Originally Posted by miraja2

Yes I suppose these are two different discussions. In terms of what her offspring have accomplished on the track (not in the shed) I think she is the best "currently producing" mare and may begining to merit discussion among the best of all time. Producing two different BC winners is amazing enough. Then when you add her other quality offspring she amazes me, and she isn't even done!! Who knows what a great horse like Cacique will accomplish the remainder of the year and what else she will produce.

No question she's paving her way to be a breed-shaping mare. I would say her successes in the shed over-shadow even Toussaud.

Besides those two, another one to watch is Serena's Song-- 3 Graded winners, 1 stakes winner and one stakes-placed winner from 6 foal to race.

A mare, who in my opinion deserves reines designation especially when compared to Dear Birdie, is La Affirmed. She may be the newest member of the bluehen ranks.

La Affirmed is still in production for Brushwood, I believe. She's an '83 Affirmed mare out of the Round Table mare, La Mesa. She is tail-female to Busanda, the dam of Buckpasser, which is one of the strongest branches of the La Troienne clan.

La Affirmed is the dam of multiple G3 winner Caress (won over males), G3 winner Country Cat, G2 winner Della Francesca, G3 winner Bernstein, and G3 placed Unify.

But more impressively, in my opinion, she's the granddam of G1 winner Sky Mesa, G3 winner Wiseman's Ferry, G2-placed Monthir, stakes-placed Mogador, and stakes-placed Quite Rightly.

Her daughters are producing extremely well and her sons and grandsons are making an impact in the shed. Its still a little early to give her all the glory, but I think she will be one of the new inductees of bluehens.

Here's a link to her page from last year's sept. sale where her daughter sold. http://www.keeneland.com/sales/sep05/pdfs/261.pdf And this page is always growing.

[slotdirt]

Well of course, La Affirmed is impressive. Affirmed and Secretariat always have bad raps as producers, but if you look at their broodmares, they're dang impressive.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Well of course, La Affirmed is impressive. Affirmed and Secretariat always have bad raps as producers, but if you look at their broodmares, they're dang impressive.

Yeah don't even get me started on fools who think Big Red was a "disappointment" as a stallion. He is without a doubt one of the top broodmare sires in the history of the sport. No question about that.
However that is not all he did, he also sired some great runners himself. His top two on the track were obviously Risen Star and Lady's Secret, and I think I would put those two up against the top colt and filly performers from almost any sire around.
Even his second-tier runners were multiple grade 1 winners like Tinners Way and General Assembly. You add those kind of on the track performances with his absolutley amazing success as a broodmare sire and Secretariat was without question a breed-changing type stallion.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Yeah don't even get me started on fools who think Big Red was a "disappointment" as a stallion. He is without a doubt one of the top broodmare sires in the history of the sport. No question about that.
However that is not all he did, he also sired some great runners himself. His top two on the track were obviously Risen Star and Lady's Secret, and I think I would put those two up against the top colt and filly performers from almost any sire around.
Even his second-tier runners were multiple grade 1 winners like Tinners Way and General Assembly. You add those kind of on the track performances with his absolutley amazing success as a broodmare sire and Secretariat was without question a breed-changing type stallion.

Tinner's Way was a spectacular racehorse, but he hasn't done much in the shed, unfortunately. By far, my favorite Secretariat son is Innkeeper.

Originally Posted by miraja2

Yeah don't even get me started on fools who think Big Red was a "disappointment" as a stallion. He is without a doubt one of the top broodmare sires in the history of the sport. No question about that.
However that is not all he did, he also sired some great runners himself. His top two on the track were obviously Risen Star and Lady's Secret, and I think I would put those two up against the top colt and filly performers from almost any sire around.
Even his second-tier runners were multiple grade 1 winners like Tinners Way and General Assembly. You add those kind of on the track performances with his absolutley amazing success as a broodmare sire and Secretariat was without question a breed-changing type stallion.

He saw some of the best mares in his day... so yes, a breed changing stallion, but his book afforded him all the success in the world. Its not just him carrying on through his daughters... those families are whats helping him. Either way though, gotta love him and worship him as a broodmare sire of sires.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Yeah don't even get me started on fools who think Big Red was a "disappointment" as a stallion. He is without a doubt one of the top broodmare sires in the history of the sport. No question about that.
However that is not all he did, he also sired some great runners himself. His top two on the track were obviously Risen Star and Lady's Secret, and I think I would put those two up against the top colt and filly performers from almost any sire around.
Even his second-tier runners were multiple grade 1 winners like Tinners Way and General Assembly. You add those kind of on the track performances with his absolutley amazing success as a broodmare sire and Secretariat was without question a breed-changing type stallion.

Mira,
Both you and Balletto know a lot about peds.
So, here's something that I'm really interested in finding the answer to.
As some folks here know, my son is a geneticist working on his post doc in developmental heart research. To me, a few of mine have Secretariat in their lines.
Anyway...the question. Was it Blue Larkspur that threw the mutant gene for the enlarged heart? I think so, but my son and I have gone round and round on this. Your input would be greatly appreciated to resolve this developmental biology debate. What do you think?

btw, Alydar was a better broodmare sire than either Spectacular Bid or Affirmed imho.
Thanks,
DTS

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Balletto

No question she's paving her way to be a breed-shaping mare. I would say her successes in the shed over-shadow even Toussaud.

Besides those two, another one to watch is Serena's Song-- 3 Graded winners, 1 stakes winner and one stakes-placed winner from 6 foal to race.

A mare, who in my opinion deserves reines designation especially when compared to Dear Birdie, is La Affirmed. She may be the newest member of the bluehen ranks.

La Affirmed is still in production for Brushwood, I believe. She's an '83 Affirmed mare out of the Round Table mare, La Mesa. She is tail-female to Busanda, the dam of Buckpasser, which is one of the strongest branches of the La Troienne clan.

La Affirmed is the dam of multiple G3 winner Caress (won over males), G3 winner Country Cat, G2 winner Della Francesca, G3 winner Bernstein, and G3 placed Unify.

But more impressively, in my opinion, she's the granddam of G1 winner Sky Mesa, G3 winner Wiseman's Ferry, G2-placed Monthir, stakes-placed Mogador, and stakes-placed Quite Rightly.

Her daughters are producing extremely well and her sons and grandsons are making an impact in the shed. Its still a little early to give her all the glory, but I think she will be one of the new inductees of bluehens.

Here's a link to her page from last year's sept. sale where her daughter sold. http://www.keeneland.com/sales/sep05/pdfs/261.pdf And this page is always growing.

La Affirmed is one of my faves! She seems to be a very good cross with Storm Cat. My fave son of hers though is none of the above listed... I like Alajwad who was a 5.5 million dollar purchase at the Keeneland September sale. He didn't do very much on the track, but he is quite the looker.