New Column from Beyer

[10 pnt move up]

Articles like these are more frustrating than informative for just about everyone who bets and follows the sport...we all know what the problem is and it has nothing to do with running on rubber or dirt.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

"The drawback to this vision, of course, is that horse racing might not be much of a sport if speed became a liability. The thoroughbreds who make the game exciting are the brilliant ones such as Kentucky Derby winner Big Brown -- not the plodders who often win on Polytrack."


So, if he had the money to buy horses, then he probably would be buying the same speed-bred horses that are most vulnerable to breaking down. These "plodders" (he and other speed addicts hate) will keep kickin' the ass of the speed-bred Derby winners trying to get home in the Belmont. They can try to speed up the track all they want come Belmont day, but you can't make those turns tight. The beauty of the Triple Crown is it requires a horse to do very different things. Winning the Derby on concrete is much different than winning the Belmont. As long as people ( like Beyer) keep thinking the "brilliant ones" in the sport are just the ones with speed,then horses will continue to be bred for speed. As long as his pro-speed attitude exists, horses will be bred in a way that results in them being more and more fragile. His own addiction to speed is part of the reason these horses break down so easily. You can't say speed is brilliant, and then turn right around and complain that they breed for it. That would be hypocritical.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Cardus

I think that he is referring to horses like Secretariat, Seattle Slew, and Spectacular Bid. All had brilliant speed.

No, he referred to Big Brown (precisely.) We are gunna find out if his example of brilliance can get 12f. If he can get 12f, then he belongs with those you mentioned. Problem with his attitude is that he has given a horse the description of " brilliant " without it being fully tested for endurance. He has won all 3 of his races this year on speed-favoring dirt tracks. The breed would be much better off if people valued the ability to get 12f. I think it does require brilliance to get all 3 legs of the triple crown. The reason we haven't had one in 30 years has a lot to do with these speed addicts that call a 3 year old "brilliant" before being tested for true endurance. Having speed is fine if it can be taken 12f.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

No, he referred to Big Brown (precisely.) We are gunna find out if his example of brilliance can get 12f. If he can get 12f, then he belongs with those you mentioned. Problem with his attitude is that he has given a horse the description of " brilliant " without it being fully tested for endurance. He has won all 3 of his races this year on speed-favoring dirt tracks. The breed would be much better off if people valued the ability to get 12f. I think it does require brilliance to get all 3 legs of the triple crown. The reason we haven't had one in 30 years has a lot to do with these speed addicts that call a 3 year old "brilliant" before being tested for true endurance. Having speed is fine if it can be taken 12f.

In no way do I disagree with your statement that the breed would be better off with people valuing stamina, but the CD track on Derby Day was definitely not favoring speed.

[King Glorious]

I don't understand those that say we should breed more horses that are going to appreciate 12f when there are no dirt races outside of the Belmont for them to run in. Well, they added some this year but for years, after they cut the JCGC down to 10f, where was there any incentive for breeders to try to breed 12f horses? There has been none. The vast majority of races in this country, whether on real dirt, grass or synthetic, are run under 8f. With that in mind, why would anyone breed a horse for a distance that they are only eligible for one time in their career unless they run on the grass?

[TheSpyder]

Lets see. On one side you have a disjointed group of owners, trainers, and state run race tracks. On the other you have pharmacitical giants ready and willing to invest what ever it takes to get into markets, lobby government and influential people, and buy their way in to any market they want.

I think it's hopeless.

Spyder
Advil Sinus Junkee

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't understand those that say we should breed more horses that are going to appreciate 12f when there are no dirt races outside of the Belmont for them to run in. Well, they added some this year but for years, after they cut the JCGC down to 10f, where was there any incentive for breeders to try to breed 12f horses? There has been none. The vast majority of races in this country, whether on real dirt, grass or synthetic, are run under 8f. With that in mind, why would anyone breed a horse for a distance that they are only eligible for one time in their career unless they run on the grass?

I guess when they get tired enough of seeing horses(bred for speed) being put in horse ambulances. They aren't tired of it yet( "just part of the game..nobody is to blame.") Well,also if they want a triple crown winner, then they need to start breeding for all 3 legs (instead of just the 1st two.)

[rontheman1964]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't understand those that say we should breed more horses that are going to appreciate 12f when there are no dirt races outside of the Belmont for them to run in. Well, they added some this year but for years, after they cut the JCGC down to 10f, where was there any incentive for breeders to try to breed 12f horses? There has been none. The vast majority of races in this country, whether on real dirt, grass or synthetic, are run under 8f. With that in mind, why would anyone breed a horse for a distance that they are only eligible for one time in their career unless they run on the grass?

That was my thougth exactly. Plus how often could you run a horse who is running 12F races? Still have to pay the vet and the feed and the stall, etc The casual owner wants to see his horse run more than 3 or 4 times a year.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by philcski

In no way do I disagree with your statement that the breed would be better off with people valuing stamina, but the CD track on Derby Day was definitely not favoring speed.

I disagree, and I think the fairest track (of the three) is usually Belmont. I think Churchill wants no more Giacomos. Their "tight" tracks on big days means it's very difficult to get the same winner of both the Kentucky Derby, and the Belmont. If you look at these races run at Belmont(lately,) you're going to see horses earning their wins in the stretch. They must be able to finish up. I think it's the best dirt track in the country,and I would play it if they didn't have the New York breds in the 6th / 9th races. That's like putting orange juice in beer.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I disagree,and I think the fairest track (of the three) is usually Belmont.I think Churchill wants no more Giacomos. Their "tight" tracks on big days means it's very difficult to get the same winner of both the Kentucky Derby,and the Belmont.

Scuds, your use of punctuation and the space bar is much appreciated

or are you dictating posts to someone?

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by GBBob

Scuds, your use of punctuation and the space bar is much appreciated

or are you dictating posts to someone?

I can write o.k., but I don't type well. I am gestalt ( if that can be an adjective.)

[Cannon Shell]

I find it amazing that virtually no one has any clue what they are talking about (including Beyer) yet everyone agrees with them. As I said on Steves show yesterday, It is like saying the best way to make the country better is to fix the economy. Hello, no kidding what exactly is the plan? What about details? Should we get rid of medications like gastrogard that treat uclers? Because ulcers can surely have an effect on performance. What about medications that are used on horses joints like Adequan, Legend or Lubrysn? They help a horse with joint issues? The thought that "medicating" horses makes them weaker breeding stock is laughable. No amount of any medication changes a horses genetic makeup. They will produce or not produce dependant on genetic factors that we dont really understand. There is no genetic dependancy on Lasix. If Rampillion never makes it to the races because she hurts herself the odds of her being a good or bad producer are the same. If she makes it to the races and turns out to bleed and is given Lasix, there is no more chance that she will produce bleeders if she is given lasix or not. She will be bred though when maybe in times before the bloodstock boom she may not have been. That is the issue. If you are saying that horses that need heavy doses of medications to run will be kept from the breeding pool you may have a point. But just because well bred mares are prevented from running at high levels because they wont be given medications doesnt mean they wont be bred or wont become top class producers. The same argument could be used that a horse like Personal Ensign was bad for the breed because she was allowed to race after major surgery that surely wasnt available in the 50's. You could say that she was inheirently weak because her back leg broke yet modern medicine allowed her to recover and become a legend and a hugely successful producer. The fact is that she would have been a great producer if she had bowed a tendon and never ran.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I disagree, and I think the fairest track (of the three) is usually Belmont. I think Churchill wants no more Giacomos. Their "tight" tracks on big days means it's very difficult to get the same winner of both the Kentucky Derby, and the Belmont. If you look at these races run at Belmont(lately,) you're going to see horses earning their wins in the stretch. They must be able to finish up. I think it's the best dirt track in the country,and I would play it if they didn't have the New York breds in the 6th / 9th races. That's like putting orange juice in beer.

The day Giacomo won at CD the track was REALLY tight. I don't have the times handy to prove that out but it was definitely fast and fair to all running styles. Don't forget how fast they went up front in that race, with some very questionable 10F pedigrees. Nobody ever called Street Sense a fainthearted frontrunner, and I don't think he would have won the Belmont last year, either.

I agree that Belmont Park is a tremendously fair track on 95% of days, however.

If I have some time later tonight I'll get a chart together of the average winners' lengths beaten at the 1/2 mile pole at each distance at each track, I'm guessing they won't be much different between CD and Bel.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by philcski

I agree that Belmont Park is a tremendously fair track on 95% of days, however.

I agree with that statement generally. The problem is that on most of the recent Belmont Stakes Days, the Belmont racing surface has been just as souped up as we frequently see at Churchill on Derby Day. In 2004, it was particularly pronounced, with Bear Fan running 1:14.2 in the Vagrancy, Speightstown running 1:08.0 in the True North, and Fire Slam going 1:20.4 in the Riva Ridge (now Woody Stephens). Similarly fast tracks in 2005, when Limehouse went 9F in Brooklyn in 1:46.3 and Woke Up Dreamin' got 6F in 1:08.1, and in 2006, when Jazil covered the 12F in 2:27.4, and a horse like Anew won the True North in 1:08.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

I think the breed itself is the main problem. The breeding for speed has resulted in fast horses that are more fragile, and struggle to get the 12f distance necessary to win the Triple Crown. His attitude (Big Brown is already brilliant) shows the lack of respect for true endurance that is so prevalent with speed addicts. Medication allows people to disconnect the warning lights, but the problem is in the breeding. If we could run the Belmont before the other 2 legs, then the breed would be much better off.