Wayne Catalano-Frank Calebrese

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

So if a trainer goes on a losing streak to drop the win % to 30%-35% that automatically clears him of any wrongdoing.

Fantastic logic. D'awesome. I want a whaaamburger happy meal with the MAC eyeliner prize.

Right, because your logic is the one where you take one line out of a post and try to make it all that I said.

If you're paying any attention, these horses would be 8-5 regardless of their trainer in about 80% of his wins so far, and he's got fresh stock and recent acquisitions from OP and Kee that fit these conditioned races perfectly. Forget Block, give them to Williamson, Robertson (either one) and they win just as often; hell, give them to Ida Spagnola and they still win at 50%.

Which...you would know if you:
1.) paid any attention
2.) had any desire to actually have a conversation, instead of just going with the usual M.O. of just being a prick and offering nothing of substance.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Right, because your logic is the one where you take one line out of a post and try to make it all that I said.

If you're paying any attention, these horses would be 8-5 regardless of their trainer in about 80% of his wins so far, and he's got fresh stock and recent acquisitions from OP and Kee that fit these conditioned races perfectly. Forget Block, give them to Williamson, Robertson (either one) and they win just as often; hell, give them to Ida Spagnola and they still win at 50%.

Which...you would know if you:
1.) paid any attention
2.) had any desire to actually have a conversation, instead of just going with the usual M.O. of just being a prick and offering nothing of substance.

Ok, now you are off your rocker.....

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Scav

Ok, now you are off your rocker.....

Ok, maybe Spagnola is a bit too far, but it's not like Catalano is moving these horses up 20 points and winning races that most trainers WOULDN'T be winning in the first place. The majority of these horses are several lengths faster than their competition, and were several lengths faster then their competition before Catalano even got them.

So when they win by several lengths because they're put in easy spots where they're several lengths the best, it's really hard for me to have sympathy for anyone who wants to complain.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Ok, maybe Spagnola is a bit too far, but it's not like Catalano is moving these horses up 20 points and winning races that most trainers WOULDN'T be winning in the first place. The majority of these horses are several lengths faster than their competition, and were several lengths faster then their competition before Catalano even got them.

So when they win by several lengths because they're put in easy spots where they're several lengths the best, it's really hard for me to have sympathy for anyone who wants to complain.

You don't have to tell me this, I agree. If I didn't know how they do things, then I would be thinking they are cheating, but I understand the operation. The guy that 'runs the show' is a pretty sharp claiming guy.

I don't think they are saints though, but they aren't Asmussen or Dutrow

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Scav

You don't have to tell me this, I agree. If I didn't know how they do things, then I would be thinking they are cheating, but I understand the operation. The guy that 'runs the show' is a pretty sharp claiming guy.

he is the brains of the outfit thats for sure. i sometimes wonder how well they would do without him.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

he is the brains of the outfit thats for sure. i sometimes wonder how well they would do without him.

Leving is his name I think, he gets fired like monthly

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Scav

Leving is his name I think, he gets fired like monthly

yes Leving, as you would say its so comedy how many times they have a falling out then get back together.

here are the numbers I have for Catalano this year
Florida 23/65 35.4%
Illinois 12/18 66.7%

Thomas M. Amoss $2,018,748 32%
Basically did at FG what Catalano does in Chicago.
W. Bret Calhoun $1,745,865 30%
This guy has always been suspect
Jamie Ness $1,129,774 35%
Same with this one
Stephanie S. Beattie $941,075 37%
Don't get me started
Brian A. Lynch $903,821 33%
Stronach's b.itch. Check the win percentage at non-Magna tracks.

The others have ridiculously high win percentages and he SMOKES them. It's not even close. It's outlandish. It's like Jesus is his co-pilot.



Wayne M. Catalano $849,249 43%

Holy s.hit!! He's the best trainer in America!!!

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Holy s.hit!! He's the best trainer in America!!!

Since being disingenuous is sort of your thing, I get that I'm wasting my time responding.

But really, if this is all so outrageous, go find the horses that should have beaten them in their 12 wins.

I'd imagine, if you were for once willing to be intellectually honest, that you would be hard pressed to find more than a dozen combined.

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Thomas M. Amoss $2,018,748 32%
Basically did at FG what Catalano does in Chicago.
W. Bret Calhoun $1,745,865 30%
This guy has always been suspect
Jamie Ness $1,129,774 35%
Same with this one
Stephanie S. Beattie $941,075 37%
Don't get me started
Brian A. Lynch $903,821 33%
Stronach's b.itch. Check the win percentage at non-Magna tracks.

The others have ridiculously high win percentages and he SMOKES them. It's not even close. It's outlandish. It's like Jesus is his co-pilot.



Wayne M. Catalano $849,249 43%

Superstar Trainer 2008 Update as of today

Brian Lynch...can't find info. Off the map!!!
Thomas M. Amoss $3,879,602 29%
W. Bret Calhoun $3,711,716 28%
Jamie Ness $2,179,160 32%
Stephanie S. Beattie $2,009,486 36%

Wayne M. Catalano 2,002,543 39%

All had drops in percentage.

Calhoun and Amoss brought home some serious coin.

Catalano was 34.9% after the hot streak at Arlington...38.5% for the meet....56% wp percentage. Still a ridiculous number yet not as damning.

What I'd like to know is how many trainers with over 200 runners in a year have held a winning percentage that high.

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Right, because your logic is the one where you take one line out of a post and try to make it all that I said.

If you're paying any attention, these horses would be 8-5 regardless of their trainer in about 80% of his wins so far, and he's got fresh stock and recent acquisitions from OP and Kee that fit these conditioned races perfectly. Forget Block, give them to Williamson, Robertson (either one) and they win just as often; hell, give them to Ida Spagnola and they still win at 50%.

Which...you would know if you:
1.) paid any attention
2.) had any desire to actually have a conversation, instead of just going with the usual M.O. of just being a prick and offering nothing of substance.

Well I've never been in one of those handicapping qualifiers so I don't have the capacity to be a know-it-all douche yet.

There is no need to go into great detail over this subject because you would have to be a complete and total ****** to believe that the high win percentage is simply by reading a condition book properly and placing horses in the right races. If that was the case, why doesn't it happen when they're in Florida, genius?

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Well I've never been in one of those handicapping qualifiers so I don't have the capacity to be a know-it-all douche yet.

There is no need to go into great detail over this subject because you would have to be a complete and total ****** to believe that the high win percentage is simply by reading a condition book properly and placing horses in the right races. If that was the case, why doesn't it happen when they're in Florida, genius?

Well that makes one person in the country who thinks that Arlington racing is as classy as Florida racing....genius.

You again (intentionally, I'm sure) overlooked the portion about how the beginning of the Arlington meet is just a slightly classier Hawthorne meet. So either you're not actually watching Arlington and following it to know that, or you're clueless as to the class level of racing in Chicago and the quality of stock up here.

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Well that makes one person in the country who thinks that Arlington racing is as classy as Florida racing....genius.

You again (intentionally, I'm sure) overlooked the portion about how the beginning of the Arlington meet is just a slightly classier Hawthorne meet. So either you're not actually watching Arlington and following it to know that, or you're clueless as to the class level of racing in Chicago and the quality of stock up here.

Oh yeah I forgot that Gulfstream was a tremendous meet this year with very little bottom level claiming races. STUPID, CLUELESS ME!!!

It's just odd how they win at such an extreme clip in their backyard and how it drops dramatically when they go ANYWHERE else. I guess it's because they're smarter than every owner and trainer in Chicago. That's the only reason.

YET you have the audacity to say give their stock to about any trainer on the Chicago circuit and they would win with at least a 50% clip when the GOD DAMN numbers when their horses are claimed ARE SINGLE DIGITS.

JESUSTAPDANCINGCHRIST PEOPLE ARE ****ING NAIVE

[jwkniska]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Oh yeah I forgot that Gulfstream was a tremendous meet this year with very little bottom level claiming races. STUPID, CLUELESS ME!!!

It's just odd how they win at such an extreme clip in their backyard and how it drops dramatically when they go ANYWHERE else. I guess it's because they're smarter than every owner and trainer in Chicago. That's the only reason.

YET you have the audacity to say give their stock to about any trainer on the Chicago circuit and they would win with at least a 50% clip when the GOD DAMN numbers when their horses are claimed ARE SINGLE DIGITS.

JESUSTAPDANCINGCHRIST PEOPLE ARE ****ING NAIVE

I'm not sure exactly what their Keeneland/GP numbers are, but they run only certain horses there and they're also always viable to win, when entered.... and normally at a pretty good price too.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Oh yeah I forgot that Gulfstream was a tremendous meet this year with very little bottom level claiming races. STUPID, CLUELESS ME!!!

It's just odd how they win at such an extreme clip in their backyard and how it drops dramatically when they go ANYWHERE else. I guess it's because they're smarter than every owner and trainer in Chicago. That's the only reason.

YET you have the audacity to say give their stock to about any trainer on the Chicago circuit and they would win with at least a 50% clip when the GOD DAMN numbers when their horses are claimed ARE SINGLE DIGITS.

JESUSTAPDANCINGCHRIST PEOPLE ARE ****ING NAIVE

You go tell me who they're beating that they shouldn't be beating.

So far, they've won, in order:
- An off the turf overnight stake (which eliminated the competitive form of nearly all the field) with a horse who had already won a Grade III over the track
- $10K claimer
- $40K maiden claimer
- $15K claimer
- $7.5K claimer
- $10K claimer
- $14K claimer
- $25K maiden claimer
- $32.5K claimer
- $10K claimer
- AOC $50K claimer
- $25K claimer

Very, very, very tough, as I'm sure you know, to win these types of races with horses coming off very competitive efforts at Keeneland and Oaklawn, when then stacked up against horses coming off of efforts at Hawthorne.

I am totally missing the point...obviously.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

YET you have the audacity to say give their stock to about any trainer on the Chicago circuit and they would win with at least a 50% clip when the GOD DAMN numbers when their horses are claimed ARE SINGLE DIGITS. JESUSTAPDANCINGCHRIST PEOPLE ARE ****ING NAIVE

This is true, but as Brian and others have pointed out, Catalano often drops a horse in class, wins the race, and loses the horse. Then the animal is often moved up in class with new connections in its next start. This is a big reason for the low % when one of their's gets claimed.

I dont know the answer to the question of what exactly they get away with here. Would I be shocked to learn that they have engaged in widespread activities that circumvented the rules? Absolutely not. But I don't think that it is completely outrageous (or naive) to point to their strategy in the claiming game as a BIG factor in their hig win %. Is it the only factor? Perhaps not, but I don't think we really know for sure.

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by miraja2

This is true, but as Brian and others have pointed out, Catalano often drops a horse in class, wins the race, and loses the horse. Then the animal is often moved up in class with new connections in its next start. This is a big reason for the low % when one of their's gets claimed.
I dont know the answer to the question of what exactly they get away with here. Would I be shocked to learn that they have engaged in widespread activities that circumvented the rules? Absolutely not. But I don't think that it is completely outrageous (or naive) to point to their strategy in the claiming game as a BIG factor in their hig win %. Is it the only factor? Perhaps not, but I don't think we really know for sure.

Absolutely untrue. I did the research. Most often, the horses that were claimed from Catalano had to drop down dramatically in order to win. Not to mention, many and I mean many, of the claims from this guy had 1 or 2 starts and were laid off. Many didn't come back at all.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

Absolutely untrue. I did the research. Most often, the horses that were claimed from Catalano had to drop down dramatically in order to win. Not to mention, many and I mean many, of the claims from this guy had 1 or 2 starts and were laid off. Many didn't come back at all.

I don't dispute that at all, but I don't think that means my previous statement is untrue.
I haven't looked carefully at the numbers, but it seems like many claimed from him move up initially after the claim and typically fail. Then, as you say, they eventually have to drop again (often considerably) in order to find the winner's circle again. I wasn't saying that the horses move up after they are claimed from him and win. In fact it is - as you point out - quite the opposite, which is the point I was trying to make.

As for the point about horses being claimed from him and starting once or twice more and being then being laid off, that certainly does happen, but isn't that true of the low-level claiming game in general? Do you know if it happens more often with him than with other trainers?

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Thanks for taking the time to do research in which the answers should be painfully obvious to everyone. BUT NOT HERE!!!

It's hilarious to be talked down to by a ********** with a hometown bias. Heaven forbid tomfoolery and whatnot goes on at his home track where he's employed.

I noticed Calabrese/Catalano are taking Wednesday and Thursday off. Lets watch the races and see which horses that stand out on paper win. I bet it's not anywhere close to 50%, much less 70%.

I really don't think it is hometown bias. If people were on here absolutely defending these guys and saying that there is no way they were cheating, well, then that would be pretty ridiculous. But that is not really what I see Brian and others doing. I, for one, definitely don't dispute that fact that there is certainly a fairly high probability that they are involved in some illicit activities. But isn't at least possible that their high win % is ALSO based on some of the other factors that people in this thread have raised?

[Scav]

These two have had three horses claimed off them this meet

Our Cat (10k), Red Chill (15k), Pisces Poem (10k)

Our Cat = Won (4.40) by Reavis
Red Chill = Won (5.00) by Bettis
Pisces Poem = Won (2.80) by Spanky Broussard

Reavis is decent, but the others are questionable....