Wayne Catalano-Frank Calebrese

[ELA]

Originally Posted by GBBob

Exactly

and I would think the claimed away win % is getting higher as there aren't as many who will claim off a Cat/Cal claim and drop anymore

Good point. Let's not get into too much detail, LOL. Also, think about it this way. Look at "how" they point toward a meet and "where" they claim (not geographically of course). It's no secret. If I was them, I'd be sleeping outside the race office the night before the proof comes out. They probably get an advanced copy of the proof. If I was a race secretary, I'd give it to them. Anyway, now look at when the meet starts how they wheel back after they claim. More people end up having to claim off the rise than the drop -- but it can't be on out of town horses. The other piece is a bit more more cure.

Eric

[Scav]

Originally Posted by ELA

I was going to stay out of this one, but I just wanted to clarify one item. The results should not be justified by statistical data like the above. I am not saying they are saints, and I am not saying they are sinners. I am not saying either, although plenty of people absent of facts seem to be willing to do so.

The statistics are distorted, and if you need someone to explain why, then this is a futile discussion. Pick up a condition book and you can read why.

By the way -- does anyone know when was the last time Catalano got a positive test? What about a "high" test?

Eric

Eric, excellent point about him getting a positive, to my recollection, he has never recieved a positive test. But I do not think Illinois tests for milkshaking

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Scav

Eric, excellent point about him getting a positive, to my recollection, he has never recieved a positive test. But I do not think Illinois tests for milkshaking

I don't know if they do. Someone told me that IL has the back box for harness racing, but again, I don't know. Is it possible they have it for harness and not the flats? Of course. Here in NJ (at the Meadowlands), they got the black box for harness years before it went in to effect for the flats. I never understood why the two don't work together . . . oh yeah, that's right, this is the horse racing industry, LOL.

Here in NJ, it appears the harness industry has made far more progress on "catching" cheaters. I think they are still doing a lot of barking absent of biting, but they are getting better. Catching is one aspect, but enforcement is just as important.

I am sure this will open another Pandora's box of an arguement, however, regardless, I don't care what anyone says -- milkshaking is not getting these guys the results they are getting. Meet after meet, track after track, different states, on track from what I gather, surprise visit(s), and so on.

Eric

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Folks,this is supposed to be about an entertainment product. In this case(horseracing,) the entertainment being sold is a product called competition. If you don't have competition,then you don't have something to sell. People are standing around waiting until something competitive does happen. Regardless of whether you think these 2 people are right or wrong,they are hurting the entertainment value of this sport.The sport would be much better off if they replaced these uncompetitive races with competitive ones. When it gets boring enough,then they will have to do something about it.The competitive races are subsidizing these uncompetitive displays these two are putting on. That's the truth.You can say they are within the rules etc. etc., but most people go to the track to watch competition.They just put up with these boring races in order to finally get to the competive ones. They are paying these two, and these two are not providing anything entertaining in return. They just provide boring mismatches, and it is not good for the entertainment value of this sport. At some point, people are gunna wake up, and realize that they need to provide a more entertaining product than what these two offer up.

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Folks,this is supposed to be about an entertainment product. In this case(horseracing,) the entertainment being sold is a product called competition. If you don't have competition,then you don't have something to sell. People are standing around waiting until something competitive does happen. Regardless of whether you think these 2 people are right or wrong,they are hurting the entertainment value of this sport.The sport would be much better off if they replaced these uncompetitive races with competitive ones. When it gets boring enough,then they will have to do something about it.The competitive races are subsidizing these uncompetitive displays these two are putting on. That's the truth.You can say they are within the rules etc. etc., but most people go to the track to watch competition.They just put up with these boring races in order to finally get to the competive ones. They are paying these two, and these two are not providing anything entertaining in return. They just provide boring mismatches, and it is not good for the entertainment value of this sport. At some point, people are gunna wake up, and realize that they need to provide a more entertaining product than what these two offer up.

THis is a track problem. I would take a close look at purse value v. claiming price. Properly set up races can take care of this problem. But it might be they also want to fill up fields. There obviously are all sorts of ways to set up a meet depending on what the track expects will be coming to race in order to provide a "product". If these guys are taking advantage of purse value v. claiming price, all the more power to them if they are not cheating. It is the tracks responsibility to set up competitive races while at the same time working with the horsemen that come to race.

What size of barn do these guys have compared to other trainers at Arlington? If they are bringing lots of animals and filling cards and stalls... The other trainers can run elsewhere if the condition book is lopsided.

[stonegossard]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

they're all hitting new lifetime tops, how can you say its just spotting?
i'm going to play lightly until this madness is over. no sense joining them because you can't make money.

did you see brandons race? he found trouble but it didn't matter.

I was gonna post about this a few days ago but didnt. Glad others around here can see whats goin on out in Chicago. For years Catalano/Calabrese have been moving horses up. But the crookedness goin on now makes a guy like Dutrow look like an angel. You are right on target about the spotting thing. These horses are improving way too much. Even for Catalano standards. The race today with Meier's kid was hysterical. The kid just sat on the horse without moving much. I could have ridden that horse today to the winner's circle.

Catalano seems to be using jocks like Meier (rookie), David Bourque(horrible), and Fires (too old) because these horses are so juiced up they cant possibly lose.

Now maybe you see my frustration with AP now.

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by stonegossard

I was gonna post about this a few days ago but didnt. Glad others around here can see whats goin on out in Chicago. For years Catalano/Calabrese have been moving horses up. But the crookedness goin on now makes a guy like Dutrow look like an angel. You are right on target about the spotting thing. These horses are improving way too much. Even for Catalano standards. The race today with Meier's kid was hysterical. The kid just sat on the horse without moving much. I could have ridden that horse today to the winner's circle.

Catalano seems to be using jocks like Meier (rookie), David Bourque(horrible), and Fires (too old) because these horses are so juiced up they cant possibly lose.

Now maybe you see my frustration with AP now.

The worst thing about it.....the track won't do a single thing. These guys are basically robbing other trainers and owners and the track will sit by and watch it happen.

It's also interesting to note that these accomplishments never make the radar screen. This is pretty amazing stuff in the horse world yet no one talks about it. Probably because everyone knows it's not legitimate.

[ArlJim78]

so it all comes down to knowing how to read a condition book and spotting horses? why are they so brilliant at it while others don't catch on to this simple system? also how does reading the condition book and spotting horses make them run faster?

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

so it all comes down to knowing how to read a condition book and spotting horses? why are they so brilliant at it while others don't catch on to this simple system? also how does reading the condition book and spotting horses make them run faster?

you really think they're juicing?

They are going to go 0-8 pretty soon over a weekend and there will be a lot of opportunties to make money...

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by GBBob

you really think they're juicing?

They are going to go 0-8 pretty soon over a weekend and there will be a lot of opportunties to make money...

true...

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by GBBob

you really think they're juicing?

They are going to go 0-8 pretty soon over a weekend and there will be a lot of opportunties to make money...

They do every year. Catalano is firing at a higher rate than normal at the moment, but it's all going to level out. He has streaks like this every year, it's just not as noticeable when it happens mid-meet because his win percentages aren't as high as they are now.

Catalano is firing all his bullets now. It seems pretty clear to me that they got the first condition book, pointed horses for races, and got runners that could come in and dominate early meet claiming races. They enter two in a race, realize that one can win the next day, and they scratch and get two for one. The man puts horses where they can win, and in all honesty, all he's really been doing is winning like crazy at a meet in which the first few weeks are just an ever so slightly improved version of Hawthorne's spring meet.

Just like Cat gets hot every year like this, he goes ice cold every year, and I think it's going to happen sooner than later. Just wait for his 1-for-20 streak that inevitably comes every year.

What gets lost in all of these arguments about the Catalano/Calabrese horses and their insane win percentages is the fact that nearly all of the horses who win look the best on paper going into the race. He doesn't win that often when they look overmatched (Porticipation and Rusty Bucket on Saturday, for example).

You give a guy like Chris Block, who nobody is ever going to accuse of juicing horses, the same stock and the same entries against the same competition that Cat has sent to post so far this year, and Block wins at 70% too.

I'll call the waaaaahmbulance for the rest of you.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

They do every year. Catalano is firing at a higher rate than normal at the moment, but it's all going to level out. He has streaks like this every year, it's just not as noticeable when it happens mid-meet because his win percentages aren't as high as they are now.

Catalano is firing all his bullets now. It seems pretty clear to me that they got the first condition book, pointed horses for races, and got runners that could come in and dominate early meet claiming races. They enter two in a race, realize that one can win the next day, and they scratch and get two for one. The man puts horses where they can win, and in all honesty, all he's really been doing is winning like crazy at a meet in which the first few weeks are just an ever so slightly improved version of Hawthorne's spring meet.

Just like Cat gets hot every year like this, he goes ice cold every year, and I think it's going to happen sooner than later. Just wait for his 1-for-20 streak that inevitably comes every year.

What gets lost in all of these arguments about the Catalano/Calabrese horses and their insane win percentages is the fact that nearly all of the horses who win look the best on paper going into the race. He doesn't win that often when they look overmatched (Porticipation and Rusty Bucket on Saturday, for example).

You give a guy like Chris Block, who nobody is ever going to accuse of juicing horses, the same stock and the same entries against the same competition that Cat has sent to post so far this year, and Block wins at 70% too.

I'll call the waaaaahmbulance for the rest of you.

Easy with the Block comment, he singlehandily owns the Illinois breeding industry because he has the best mares in Illinois.

So if a trainer goes on a losing streak to drop the win % to 30%-35% that automatically clears him of any wrongdoing.

Fantastic logic. D'awesome. I want a whaaamburger happy meal with the MAC eyeliner prize.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

So if a trainer goes on a losing streak to drop the win % to 30%-35% that automatically clears him of any wrongdoing.

Fantastic logic. D'awesome. I want a whaaamburger happy meal with the MAC eyeliner prize.

Right, because your logic is the one where you take one line out of a post and try to make it all that I said.

If you're paying any attention, these horses would be 8-5 regardless of their trainer in about 80% of his wins so far, and he's got fresh stock and recent acquisitions from OP and Kee that fit these conditioned races perfectly. Forget Block, give them to Williamson, Robertson (either one) and they win just as often; hell, give them to Ida Spagnola and they still win at 50%.

Which...you would know if you:
1.) paid any attention
2.) had any desire to actually have a conversation, instead of just going with the usual M.O. of just being a prick and offering nothing of substance.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Right, because your logic is the one where you take one line out of a post and try to make it all that I said.

If you're paying any attention, these horses would be 8-5 regardless of their trainer in about 80% of his wins so far, and he's got fresh stock and recent acquisitions from OP and Kee that fit these conditioned races perfectly. Forget Block, give them to Williamson, Robertson (either one) and they win just as often; hell, give them to Ida Spagnola and they still win at 50%.

Which...you would know if you:
1.) paid any attention
2.) had any desire to actually have a conversation, instead of just going with the usual M.O. of just being a prick and offering nothing of substance.

Ok, now you are off your rocker.....

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Scav

Ok, now you are off your rocker.....

Ok, maybe Spagnola is a bit too far, but it's not like Catalano is moving these horses up 20 points and winning races that most trainers WOULDN'T be winning in the first place. The majority of these horses are several lengths faster than their competition, and were several lengths faster then their competition before Catalano even got them.

So when they win by several lengths because they're put in easy spots where they're several lengths the best, it's really hard for me to have sympathy for anyone who wants to complain.

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Right, because your logic is the one where you take one line out of a post and try to make it all that I said.

If you're paying any attention, these horses would be 8-5 regardless of their trainer in about 80% of his wins so far, and he's got fresh stock and recent acquisitions from OP and Kee that fit these conditioned races perfectly. Forget Block, give them to Williamson, Robertson (either one) and they win just as often; hell, give them to Ida Spagnola and they still win at 50%.

Which...you would know if you:
1.) paid any attention
2.) had any desire to actually have a conversation, instead of just going with the usual M.O. of just being a prick and offering nothing of substance.

Well I've never been in one of those handicapping qualifiers so I don't have the capacity to be a know-it-all douche yet.

There is no need to go into great detail over this subject because you would have to be a complete and total ****** to believe that the high win percentage is simply by reading a condition book properly and placing horses in the right races. If that was the case, why doesn't it happen when they're in Florida, genius?

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Well I've never been in one of those handicapping qualifiers so I don't have the capacity to be a know-it-all douche yet.

There is no need to go into great detail over this subject because you would have to be a complete and total ****** to believe that the high win percentage is simply by reading a condition book properly and placing horses in the right races. If that was the case, why doesn't it happen when they're in Florida, genius?

Well that makes one person in the country who thinks that Arlington racing is as classy as Florida racing....genius.

You again (intentionally, I'm sure) overlooked the portion about how the beginning of the Arlington meet is just a slightly classier Hawthorne meet. So either you're not actually watching Arlington and following it to know that, or you're clueless as to the class level of racing in Chicago and the quality of stock up here.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Ok, maybe Spagnola is a bit too far, but it's not like Catalano is moving these horses up 20 points and winning races that most trainers WOULDN'T be winning in the first place. The majority of these horses are several lengths faster than their competition, and were several lengths faster then their competition before Catalano even got them.

So when they win by several lengths because they're put in easy spots where they're several lengths the best, it's really hard for me to have sympathy for anyone who wants to complain.

You don't have to tell me this, I agree. If I didn't know how they do things, then I would be thinking they are cheating, but I understand the operation. The guy that 'runs the show' is a pretty sharp claiming guy.

I don't think they are saints though, but they aren't Asmussen or Dutrow

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Well that makes one person in the country who thinks that Arlington racing is as classy as Florida racing....genius.

You again (intentionally, I'm sure) overlooked the portion about how the beginning of the Arlington meet is just a slightly classier Hawthorne meet. So either you're not actually watching Arlington and following it to know that, or you're clueless as to the class level of racing in Chicago and the quality of stock up here.

Oh yeah I forgot that Gulfstream was a tremendous meet this year with very little bottom level claiming races. STUPID, CLUELESS ME!!!

It's just odd how they win at such an extreme clip in their backyard and how it drops dramatically when they go ANYWHERE else. I guess it's because they're smarter than every owner and trainer in Chicago. That's the only reason.

YET you have the audacity to say give their stock to about any trainer on the Chicago circuit and they would win with at least a 50% clip when the GOD DAMN numbers when their horses are claimed ARE SINGLE DIGITS.

JESUSTAPDANCINGCHRIST PEOPLE ARE ****ING NAIVE