Wayne Catalano-Frank Calebrese

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Scav

Brandon Meier has been working with Catalano for the last 4 years or something, it isn't like he was given this mount.

He is not getting movements, he is spotting correctly.

Listen, I don't know what is going on, but the board tells you everything you need to know about Calabrese horses. If you can't beat them, which you can't right now, join them...

they're all hitting new lifetime tops, how can you say its just spotting?
i'm going to play lightly until this madness is over. no sense joining them because you can't make money.

did you see brandons race? he found trouble but it didn't matter.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

they're all hitting new lifetime tops, how can you say its just spotting?
i'm going to play lightly until this madness is over. no sense joining them because you can't make money.

did you see brandons race? he found trouble but it didn't matter.

It didn't matter because their were a bunch of cows in that race. That horse was there for one reason, to win for the kid.

How do you know they are reaching lifetime tops, I am speaking in relation to figures??

A horse like Rebounded is strictly a good claim, Tagg offered him for 30k and they took him.

I am not saying they are choir boys, but they usually win at 40% anyways, so now they are just hot, they have had plenty of weekends where they have won 5 out of 8 races they have run in. It wasn't like the horses that are winning haven't made 100% logicial sense, there hasn't been an illogical winner yet from them

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Scav

It didn't matter because their were a bunch of cows in that race. That horse was there for one reason, to win for the kid.

How do you know they are reaching lifetime tops, I am speaking in relation to figures??

A horse like Rebounded is strictly a good claim, Tagg offered him for 30k and they took him.

I am not saying they are choir boys, but they usually win at 40% anyways, so now they are just hot, they have had plenty of weekends where they have won 5 out of 8 races they have run in. It wasn't like the horses that are winning haven't made 100% logicial sense, there hasn't been an illogical winner yet from them

and what happens when their horses are claimed away? hmmm
proof that they're moved up is that they all drop off drastically when they're done with them.

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

and what happens when their horses are claimed away? hmmm
proof that they're moved up is that they all drop off drastically when they're done with them.

Here are some nice stats for you:


Since 2003 horses claimed by Catalano (next start):
35% wins and 67% in the money
(385 starters. 136 wins and 257 in the money)

Since 2003 horses claimed away from Catalano (next start):
9% wins and 39% in the money
(479 starters. 44 wins and 187 in the money)

[MISTERGEE]

only one explanation
catalano=miracle worker

Jamie Ness owns Catasoprano.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

Here are some nice stats for you:


Since 2003 horses claimed by Catalano (next start):
35% wins and 67% in the money
(385 starters. 136 wins and 257 in the money)

Since 2003 horses claimed away from Catalano (next start):
9% wins and 39% in the money
(479 starters. 44 wins and 187 in the money)

I was going to stay out of this one, but I just wanted to clarify one item. The results should not be justified by statistical data like the above. I am not saying they are saints, and I am not saying they are sinners. I am not saying either, although plenty of people absent of facts seem to be willing to do so.

The statistics are distorted, and if you need someone to explain why, then this is a futile discussion. Pick up a condition book and you can read why.

By the way -- does anyone know when was the last time Catalano got a positive test? What about a "high" test?

Eric

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by ELA

I was going to stay out of this one, but I just wanted to clarify one item. The results should not be justified by statistical data like the above. I am not saying they are saints, and I am not saying they are sinners. I am not saying either, although plenty of people absent of facts seem to be willing to do so.

The statistics are distorted, and if you need someone to explain why, then this is a futile discussion. Pick up a condition book and you can read why.

By the way -- does anyone know when was the last time Catalano got a positive test? What about a "high" test?

Eric

This gibberish means zero to me. Just silly talk.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by ELA

I was going to stay out of this one, but I just wanted to clarify one item. The results should not be justified by statistical data like the above. I am not saying they are saints, and I am not saying they are sinners. I am not saying either, although plenty of people absent of facts seem to be willing to do so.

The statistics are distorted, and if you need someone to explain why, then this is a futile discussion. Pick up a condition book and you can read why.

By the way -- does anyone know when was the last time Catalano got a positive test? What about a "high" test?

Eric

Exactly

and I would think the claimed away win % is getting higher as there aren't as many who will claim off a Cat/Cal claim and drop anymore

[ELA]

Originally Posted by GBBob

Exactly

and I would think the claimed away win % is getting higher as there aren't as many who will claim off a Cat/Cal claim and drop anymore

Good point. Let's not get into too much detail, LOL. Also, think about it this way. Look at "how" they point toward a meet and "where" they claim (not geographically of course). It's no secret. If I was them, I'd be sleeping outside the race office the night before the proof comes out. They probably get an advanced copy of the proof. If I was a race secretary, I'd give it to them. Anyway, now look at when the meet starts how they wheel back after they claim. More people end up having to claim off the rise than the drop -- but it can't be on out of town horses. The other piece is a bit more more cure.

Eric

[Scav]

Originally Posted by ELA

I was going to stay out of this one, but I just wanted to clarify one item. The results should not be justified by statistical data like the above. I am not saying they are saints, and I am not saying they are sinners. I am not saying either, although plenty of people absent of facts seem to be willing to do so.

The statistics are distorted, and if you need someone to explain why, then this is a futile discussion. Pick up a condition book and you can read why.

By the way -- does anyone know when was the last time Catalano got a positive test? What about a "high" test?

Eric

Eric, excellent point about him getting a positive, to my recollection, he has never recieved a positive test. But I do not think Illinois tests for milkshaking

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Scav

Eric, excellent point about him getting a positive, to my recollection, he has never recieved a positive test. But I do not think Illinois tests for milkshaking

I don't know if they do. Someone told me that IL has the back box for harness racing, but again, I don't know. Is it possible they have it for harness and not the flats? Of course. Here in NJ (at the Meadowlands), they got the black box for harness years before it went in to effect for the flats. I never understood why the two don't work together . . . oh yeah, that's right, this is the horse racing industry, LOL.

Here in NJ, it appears the harness industry has made far more progress on "catching" cheaters. I think they are still doing a lot of barking absent of biting, but they are getting better. Catching is one aspect, but enforcement is just as important.

I am sure this will open another Pandora's box of an arguement, however, regardless, I don't care what anyone says -- milkshaking is not getting these guys the results they are getting. Meet after meet, track after track, different states, on track from what I gather, surprise visit(s), and so on.

Eric

[reese]

Originally Posted by ELA

I was going to stay out of this one, but I just wanted to clarify one item. The results should not be justified by statistical data like the above. I am not saying they are saints, and I am not saying they are sinners. I am not saying either, although plenty of people absent of facts seem to be willing to do so.

The statistics are distorted, and if you need someone to explain why, then this is a futile discussion. Pick up a condition book and you can read why.

By the way -- does anyone know when was the last time Catalano got a positive test? What about a "high" test?

Eric

Clearly,you feel strongly all ways Thanks for clarifying that.

Who can definitively say that Arl tests all horses vigorously for all drugs and CO2 levels. Do they have a detention barn like nyra?

I think the before and after stats tell the REAL story. Reminds me of Lake and Shumen. Lake USED to have gaudy win % in NY UNTIL nyra instituted the detention barn and began testing all. Lake had one runner in NY this year that I can remember...gee wonder why

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by reese

Clearly,you feel strongly all ways Thanks for clarifying that.

Who can definitively say that Arl tests all horses vigorously for all drugs and CO2 levels. Do they have a detention barn like nyra?

I think the before and after stats tell the REAL story. Reminds me of Lake and Shumen. Lake USED to have gaudy win % in NY UNTIL nyra instituted the detention barn and began testing all. Lake had one runner in NY this year that I can remember...gee wonder why

Maybe because he can run at Philly park, Delaware and Presque isle for similar money and less competition? The detention barn is far from the answer. Do you think NY test all horses vigorously for all drugs?

[ELA]

Originally Posted by reese

Clearly,you feel strongly all ways Thanks for clarifying that.

Who can definitively say that Arl tests all horses vigorously for all drugs and CO2 levels. Do they have a detention barn like nyra?

I think the before and after stats tell the REAL story. Reminds me of Lake and Shumen. Lake USED to have gaudy win % in NY UNTIL nyra instituted the detention barn and began testing all. Lake had one runner in NY this year that I can remember...gee wonder why

Oh yes, I feel strongly on both sides of the arguement, yeah, that's it. I always enjoy how someone takes one post and makes that all-encompassing in order to make a weak point or invalidate another's opinion. I think I've made my opinions on these topics known very clearly. If you don't think so, I suggest you improve your reading and comprehension skills.

As far as Arlington, other than racing there, I am not at all familiar with what they test for and what they don't. As far as I know, they do not have an extended/pre-race detention barn, vis a vis NY.

The before and after can certainly tell a great deal -- without question. As a result of that, you can certainly assume, perhaps a lot. However, under today's rules -- I don't know of one racing jurisdiction that will ban someone for before and after, form reversal, etc. They can lean on a guy, as discussed in this thread, and they can certainly make life difficult for someone -- ala Shuman/Gill/et al. The arguement of doing otherwise, in this case more, is a fallacious one. With regard to NYRA, I am not aware of NYRA changing their standards, testing, etc. because of the implementation of the detention barn. The one change that was made was the implementation of the black box and that testing, however, I've been told that came before the detention barn. Whether or not that's true, it doesn't matter.

Perhaps every racetrack in the US should implement an extended/pre-race detention barn. Maybe there's the answer. It might just be that simple. On the other hand, I think we will all see the trickle-down effect of steroid(s) testing, out of competition testing, and additional measures that are being implemented.

Eric

[phystech]

Originally Posted by reese

Lake had one runner in NY this year that I can remember...gee wonder why

Let me help you with your memory a little since others are helping you with other issues you have.

I own part of a horse that Lake trains and we have run 5 times in NY this year, and that includes a win and a second. I assume he passed both tests for those races since we haven't given any of the cash back.....

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by Scav

It didn't matter because their were a bunch of cows in that race. That horse was there for one reason, to win for the kid.

How do you know they are reaching lifetime tops, I am speaking in relation to figures??

A horse like Rebounded is strictly a good claim, Tagg offered him for 30k and they took him.

I am not saying they are choir boys, but they usually win at 40% anyways, so now they are just hot, they have had plenty of weekends where they have won 5 out of 8 races they have run in. It wasn't like the horses that are winning haven't made 100% logicial sense, there hasn't been an illogical winner yet from them

Really wish I could believe it was legit Scav but, given the nature of horse racing, I am more inclined to believe a fat man with a red suit and white beard will bring me presents in late December.

I hate to say it, but the game of horse racing is not being governed by anyone. There is absolutely no accountability. The trends Catalano is hitting should be a red flag for investigation. Nothing will happen.

[Uncle Daddy]

What is really touching is their love and mutual respect for each other. I think this year is the 1ST I can remember with a public falling out

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Uncle Daddy

What is really touching is their love and mutual respect for each other. I think this year is the 1ST I can remember with a public falling out

It will happen, just a matter of time

[MISTERGEE]

the avg win % of all trainers in the hall of fame is 17%, these guys make them look like crap then