Is Haskin joking?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i don't recall any given saturday handing the tampa bay derby to street sense, or grasshopper later in the summer for that matter. rags didn't get a gift in the belmont either.

If they were all still racing today, Curlin would go off at even money against any of last years group. nostalgically looking back at what happened in the Tampa Bay Derby, Kentucky Derby or Belmont does not do justice to what Curlin evolved into.
but yes kudos to multiple gr1 winner Street Sense for gallantly holding off the first level allowance winner Grasshopper at Saratoga. It was his last victory. Street Sense never beat older horses, but Curlin has done so 4 straight times including the breeders cup and DWC.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

If they were all still racing today, Curlin would go off at even money against any of last years group. nostalgically looking back at what happened in the Tampa Bay Derby, Kentucky Derby or Belmont does not do justice to what Curlin evolved into.
but yes kudos to multiple gr1 winner Street Sense for gallantly holding off the first level allowance winner Grasshopper at Saratoga. It was his last victory. Street Sense never beat older horses, but Curlin has done so 4 straight times including the breeders cup and DWC.

i was replying to a comment that said no one but curlin won without a race being handed to them, i disagree with that contention. the season lasts all years, regardless of how each horse started or finished it, you have to consider the entire season.
also, keep in mind that curlin was not the only one to defeat older, hard spun and any given saturday did as well. i think it was a level crop, with curlin only getting a nod now because he is still racing. of course you can only speculate on how good the others would be-but i don't think you can knock them back a few pegs on how they did last year, due to the fact they aren't racing this year.
the breeders cup had the same hard spun, street sense, etc that curlin faced all year. the older horses were laughable last year.
i think curlin is a good horse who is being elevated by many due to having the best of circumstances more so than the best of talent.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i was replying to a comment that said no one but curlin won without a race being handed to them, i disagree with that contention. the season lasts all years, regardless of how each horse started or finished it, you have to consider the entire season.
also, keep in mind that curlin was not the only one to defeat older, hard spun and any given saturday did as well. i think it was a level crop, with curlin only getting a nod now because he is still racing. of course you can only speculate on how good the others would be-but i don't think you can knock them back a few pegs on how they did last year, due to the fact they aren't racing this year.
the breeders cup had the same hard spun, street sense, etc that curlin faced all year. the older horses were laughable last year.
i think curlin is a good horse who is being elevated by many due to having the best of circumstances more so than the best of talent.

First of all I think the 3 yr old crop of 2007 was one of the deepest crops we have seen in awhile, but I am curious do you really believe that Hard Spun's Gr.2 Kentucky Cup Stks win or Any Given Saturday's Gr. 2 Brooklyn Hdcp against older compares to Curlin's Gr.1 wins in the Gr.1 Jockey Gold Cup and Breeders Cup Classic?

Second point I would like to address, is yes Curlin is still racing. But it is not without risk of tarnishing his reputation. Horses that prematurely retire avoid the risk of exposure. We won't know this about the others, but Street Sense rode a 2 horse losing streak into retirement, Rags to Riches lost in the Gazelle before retiring. Though it can be argued that these horses had already peaked or caught favorable scenarios or not. One thing cannot be argued is Curlin continued to ascend in his performances. Aren't traits in consistency and durabilty in a racehorse a sign of superiority?

Finally we can nitpick over individual races at nauseum, however certain races carry more weight and whether we like it or not, The Breeders Cup Classic is the defining moment when comparing these horses. All of the horses had long campaigns, I'm sure if Street Sense had won the race we would not be arguing who was the best 3 yr old of 2007? Wouldn't we? But the fact is none of the others were in the same league of Curlin that day, objectively to ignore that, I believe one is not truly examining all the factors at work here nor are they are accurately weighing them.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by CSC

First of all I think the 3 yr old crop of 2007 was one of the deepest crops we have seen in awhile, but I am curious do you really believe that Hard Spun's Gr.2 Kentucky Cup Stks win or Any Given Saturday's Gr. 2 Brooklyn Hdcp against older compares to Curlin's Gr.1 wins in the Gr.1 Jockey Gold Cup and Breeders Cup Classic?

Second point I would like to address, is yes Curlin is still racing. But it is not without risk of tarnishing his reputation. Horses that prematurely retire avoid the risk of exposure. We won't know this about the others, but Street Sense rode a 2 horse losing streak into retirement, Rags to Riches lost in the Gazelle before retiring. Though it can be argued that these horses had already peaked or caught favorable scenarios or not. One thing cannot be argued is Curlin continued to ascend in his performances. Aren't traits in consistency and durabilty in a racehorse a sign of superiority?

Finally we can nitpick over individual races at nauseum, however certain races carry more weight and whether we like it or not, The Breeders Cup Classic is the defining moment when comparing these horses. All of the horses had long campaigns, I'm sure if Street Sense had won the race we would not be arguing who was the best 3 yr old of 2007? Wouldn't we? But the fact is none of the others were in the same league of Curlin that day, objectively to ignore that, I believe one is not truly examining all the factors and accurately weighing them.

i agree with you on the depth of the crop. my contention in this discussion is that curlin is not 'head and shoulders' above his peers.
also, the breeders cup is a defining moment, but i would disagree that it is THE defining moment. i would also take a moment to remind everyone that street sense was a top horse two years running, and now curlin has the chance to show the same thing. also a reminder that street sense did something no horse had done before, in winning the bcj and the derby. i would disagree that no horse was in the same league as curlin, with the second place finisher in the derby also the second place finisher in the bcc. discussing weaknesses in a horses rivals does not make a horse look better.
case in point- you mention rags' loss in the gazelle- that being the same rags who beat curlin at belmont. i would say that every horse showed some tenacity, and every horse also showed moments of weakness. i am taking nothing away from curlin by saying he was better-but not head and shoulders better.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i
i think curlin is a good horse who is being elevated by many due to having the best of circumstances more so than the best of talent.

well we just really disagree on this. from my point of view, Street Sense is clearly the one who had the best of circumstances. His two races that earned him all the big accolades were as drugs pointed out greatly enhanced by trip and pace factors. When he didn't have those gifts handed to him he was much more mortal and no sure thing.

for me Curlin earned all the credit starting late in the year, and campaining in every TC race remarkably well, historically well. then when he came back in the fall he took it up another notch.

the progression was evident in the head to head match ups
Kentucky Derby, Street Sense took advantage of a miraculous rail trip while Curlin had a more troubled trip and experienced the big race for the first time checks in a well beaten third.

Preakness, Curlin already exposes Street Sense by running him down to win. there was absolutely no way he should have been able to do that if Street Sense was the more talented horse. Street Sense had the jump on Curlin and should have been home free.

The Classic, Curlin runs by Street Sense like he was standing still.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

well we just really disagree on this. from my point of view, Street Sense is clearly the one who had the best of circumstances. His two races that earned him all the big accolades were as drugs pointed out greatly enhanced by trip and pace factors. When he didn't have those gifts handed to him he was much more mortal and no sure thing.

for me Curlin earned all the credit starting late in the year, and campaining in every TC race remarkably well, historically well. then when he came back in the fall he took it up another notch.

the progression was evident in the head to head match ups
Kentucky Derby, Street Sense took advantage of a miraculous rail trip while Curlin had a more troubled trip and experienced the big race for the first time checks in a well beaten third.

Preakness, Curlin already exposes Street Sense by running him down to win. there was absolutely no way he should have been able to do that if Street Sense was the more talented horse. Street Sense had the jump on Curlin and should have been home free.

The Classic, Curlin runs by Street Sense like he was standing still.

i thought street senses tampa bay derby, in which he defeated any given saturday and the clock was one of the best races of the year. he wasn't supposed to be 100% for that race, but he never gave up. in the preakness, it was a head bob either way-and curlin won it. then he loses to rags, who then loses the gazelle.
as for the classic, hard spun ran second (again, followed by the monster awesome gem, and then street sense. the derby, street sense, hard spun and then curlin. same group all year, battling each other all year. how that makes one head and shoulders better than the others, i don't know.

i NEVER said street sense was more talented. i think he was equally talented, and showed precocity at two, and then kept his form thru august of last year. now that's something that has been sadly lacking lately in tc runners. hard spun ran hard all year, and curlin as well. but they all took turns beating each other throughout the year. curlin may have had a stronger ending, but you can't use that to negate the beginning of the year.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Preakness, Curlin already exposes Street Sense by running him down to win. there was absolutely no way he should have been able to do that if Street Sense was the more talented horse. Street Sense had the jump on Curlin and should have been home free.

He was heads the best that day but not shoulders

I will give you the BC but you have a hard time convincing me that the Preakness proved Curlin was "head and shoulders" better than the other three year olds.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He was heads the best that day but not shoulders

I will give you the BC but you have a hard time convincing me that the Preakness proved Curlin was "head and shoulders" better than the other three year olds.

Not to mention, trip or no trip, he got SMOKED in the Derby by the top two. SMOKED. Beating the incredible Imawildncrazyguy and Sedgefield (neither who have run a STEP since then) in a photo for 3rd does nothing to prove he was head and shoulders best.

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

If they were all still racing today, Curlin would go off at even money against any of last years group. nostalgically looking back at what happened in the Tampa Bay Derby, Kentucky Derby or Belmont does not do justice to what Curlin evolved into.
but yes kudos to multiple gr1 winner Street Sense for gallantly holding off the first level allowance winner Grasshopper at Saratoga. It was his last victory. Street Sense never beat older horses, but Curlin has done so 4 straight times including the breeders cup and DWC.

Nafzger never used an illegal edge in his life. His horses were never drugged. However, Assmussen's all are. Thus, I think Street Sense is a significantly better horse and will be a top notch sire. Curlin will be a bust.

Name me one Assmussen runner that went on to be a top notch sire. I can think of at least one Nafzger runner that went on to great things as a sire, Unbridled.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

Nafzger never used an illegal edge in his life. His horses were never drugged. However, Assmussen's all are. Thus, I think Street Sense is a significantly better horse and will be a top notch sire. Curlin will be a bust.

Name me one Assmussen runner that went on to be a top notch sire. I can think of at least one Nafzger runner that went on to great things as a sire, Unbridled.

I realize some people have a hard time rationally discussing Curlin because of an extreme distaste for his trainer and/or owners. I have no interest in the drug/breeding/connections aspect of all this. It's irrelavant to my main point which is that Curlin was no doubt the best performer of the 2007 3yo's.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

I realize some people have a hard time rationally discussing Curlin because of an extreme distaste for his trainer and/or owners. I have no interest in the drug/breeding/connections aspect of all this. It's irrelavant to my main point which is that Curlin was no doubt the best performer of the 2007 3yo's.

I have to disagree with the no doubt assessment. Winning in the slop at Monmouth (which we knew Street Sense didn't like) was the only time he singled himself out and it hardly made him the no doubt best performer of the 2007 3yos. If Street Sense and Hard Spun were both in training this year I would guarantee that Curlin would not go undefeated.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I have to disagree with the no doubt assessment. Winning in the slop at Monmouth (which we knew Street Sense didn't like) was the only time he singled himself out and it hardly made him the no doubt best performer of the 2007 3yos. If Street Sense and Hard Spun were both in training this year I would guarantee that Curlin would not go undefeated.

Street Sense would never have gotten in the way of a Curlin win this year.
Hard Spun, under the right conditions might have been able to.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Street Sense would never have gotten in the way of a Curlin win this year.
Hard Spun, under the right conditions might have been able to.

The horse often makes their trip which is why I don't understand the criticism of Street Sense cause his big wins were dream trips. There are very few horses that would have taken the rail like Street Sense did. Brother Derek might have actually crapped mid-race had his jockey ever tried to take him through a hole like that.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Street Sense would never have gotten in the way of a Curlin win this year.
Hard Spun, under the right conditions might have been able to.

I totally agree.

[Danzig]

i don't know how you can make the case that street sense wouldn't have been able to give curlin a run for his money at four. street sense won throughout the year last year, but then ran his worst race in the swamp at monmouth. how does that correlate to him not giving curlin a run this year? would all their matchups be in a quagmire?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

Nafzger never used an illegal edge in his life. His horses were never drugged. However, Assmussen's all are. Thus, I think Street Sense is a significantly better horse and will be a top notch sire. Curlin will be a bust.

Name me one Assmussen runner that went on to be a top notch sire. I can think of at least one Nafzger runner that went on to great things as a sire, Unbridled.

posse is doing pretty well. it is a stretch to say that horses given "illegal" drugs wont be sucessful as sires because racetrack performance doesnt necessarily translate to success at stud. Horses like Formal Gold and Skip Away would be Gods on the track nowdays but havent been bigtime sires and i'm pretty sure it isnt because they were drugged.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I am certainly no Assmussen fan, but this post is silly, for many reasons. All of Assmussen's horses are drugged? Come on. I was about as big a Street Sense fan around here, but it's obvious now, that Curlin is a better horse. Question, did Helen Pitts drug Curlin also, because he ran a pretty good race for her?

Not to mention Curlin ran two pretty nice races over in Dubai.

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I am certainly no Assmussen fan, but this post is silly, for many reasons. All of Assmussen's horses are drugged? Come on. I was about as big a Street Sense fan around here, but it's obvious now, that Curlin is a better horse. Question, did Helen Pitts drug Curlin also, because he ran a pretty good race for her?

Sorry---when you are caught cheating as many times as Assmussen has been, I choose not to believe a SINGLE accomplishment on its merit.

Not saying Curlin would be a $5k claimer in another barn but I can't dignify his efforts when he is managed by a cheater like Steve A.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

Sorry---when you are caught cheating as many times as Assmussen has been, I choose not to believe a SINGLE accomplishment on its merit.

Not saying Curlin would be a $5k claimer in another barn but I can't dignify his efforts when he is managed by a cheater like Steve A.

It is of my opinion that the effect of drugs on top class horses is a lot less than people make it out to be. It is certainly a factor on claimers but when it comes to the big guns I don't think the trainers take the big risks. How else do you explain the tremendous day that Asmussen and Dutrow had in Dubai where everything is banned?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

It is of my opinion that the effect of drugs on top class horses is a lot less than people make it out to be. It is certainly a factor on claimers but when it comes to the big guns I don't think the trainers take the big risks. How else do you explain the tremendous day that Asmussen and Dutrow had in Dubai where everything is banned?

I respect your opinion but on this matter your assumptions may not be correct. Horses are horses. If a horse has an issue that an illegal drug can deal with they will run better regardless of class. There is a theory that trainers arent taking a big risk because they are using substances for which there are no tests. If there are no tests then there can be no positives. The amount of research done on possible unknown drugs is not much. Dubai, japan, hong kong or here.