Is Haskin joking?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

I disagree, by the end of the year he was decisively better than the other 3 yo's. His last three races to me clearly show Curlin as the standout of his class. Street Sense and Hard Spun plateaued, Curlin kept raising his game.
you say the Gold Cup was subpar, but he did beat the best older horse going at the time and the rest of the field was left in the dust and that performance earned him a figure better than anything Hard Spun or Street Sense earned all year. His Classic win said it all really.

His haskell loss showed you he was clearly what? The fact remains that he lost 3 of 4 races against 3 yo's in grade 1 races. Did you consider Sunday Silence head and shoulders better than Easy Goer? Probably not and he beat him 3 out of 4. He was a head bob away from being 0 for 4 in the big 3 year old races. The rest of the year counts too. He was clearly the best 3 year old in November and December.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

His haskell loss showed you he was clearly what? The fact remains that he lost 3 of 4 races against 3 yo's in grade 1 races. Did you consider Sunday Silence head and shoulders better than Easy Goer? Probably not and he beat him 3 out of 4. He was a head bob away from being 0 for 4 in the big 3 year old races. The rest of the year counts too. He was clearly the best 3 year old in November and December.

he came back a different horse more mature, whatever, in the JCGC, and consistently performed at that higher level four consecutive times now.
to me there is no doubt who the best horse to come out of 07 was. Curlin is a standout. It was unclear during the TC season, but it didn't end up that way.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

It was unclear during the TC season, but it didn't end up that way.

Without being a smart ass this time - I don't think it was unclear at all.

Hard Spun wasn't that much horse when he didn't make the lead - and when he didn't make the lead and raced wide over a live rail - he wasn't good enough to even hit the board in the Southwest Stakes.

Street Sense - I know I supposedly have a huge bias against him and all - but all of his good races came with the same illogically good trip.

Rags To Riches had a great route pedigree and a slow paced 12 furlong race was what she was tailor made for.

Curlin didn't always win when things didn't go his way - but he didn't need things to go his way to run big.

How many 3yo champions go through a season undefeated?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Without being a smart ass this time - I don't think it was unclear at all.

Hard Spun wasn't that much horse when he didn't make the lead - and when he didn't make the lead and raced wide over a live rail - he wasn't good enough to even hit the board in the Southwest Stakes.

Street Sense - I know I supposedly have a huge bias against him and all - but all of his good races came with the same illogically good trip.

Rags To Riches had a great route pedigree and a slow paced 12 furlong race was what she was tailor made for.

Curlin didn't always win when things didn't go his way - but he didn't need things to go his way to run big.

How many 3yo champions go through a season undefeated?

look, I feel Curlin is head and shoulders the best of the group.
its just for me I only became totally sure of that later in the year. If you were sure about it early on, good for you because you were right.

i agree with your assessment on him 100%, he was the only one that could win a race that wasn't handed to him.

I think you and I were among the very few on here last year that could see through the Street Sense mystique. why he went off as the favorite in the classic is a mystery to me, off of his loss to Hard Spun and his titanic struggle with Grasshopper.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

look, I feel Curlin is head and shoulders the best of the group.
its just for me I only became totally sure of that later in the year. If you were sure about it early on, good for you because you were right.

i agree with your assessment on him 100%, he was the only one that could win a race that wasn't handed to him.

I think you and I were among the very few on here last year that could see through the Street Sense mystique. why he went off as the favorite in the classic is a mystery to me, off of his loss to Hard Spun and his titanic struggle with Grasshopper.

i don't recall any given saturday handing the tampa bay derby to street sense, or grasshopper later in the summer for that matter. rags didn't get a gift in the belmont either.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i don't recall any given saturday handing the tampa bay derby to street sense, or grasshopper later in the summer for that matter. rags didn't get a gift in the belmont either.

AGS obviously got out-tripped in the Tampa Derby - Grasshopper was lightly raced and was to short on foundation to be expected to hold off a Derby winner at 10f's - even that Derby winner.

Rags didn't have a great trip in the Belmont - but a slow paced 12 furlong dirt race is what she best projected for in my opinion.

[Danzig]

i just think that it was a pretty even crop-they each won a good race, but no one really showed dominance. running at four does not automatically make a horse 'better' than his peers who have retired-as if the horse has control over that.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i don't recall any given saturday handing the tampa bay derby to street sense, or grasshopper later in the summer for that matter. rags didn't get a gift in the belmont either.

If they were all still racing today, Curlin would go off at even money against any of last years group. nostalgically looking back at what happened in the Tampa Bay Derby, Kentucky Derby or Belmont does not do justice to what Curlin evolved into.
but yes kudos to multiple gr1 winner Street Sense for gallantly holding off the first level allowance winner Grasshopper at Saratoga. It was his last victory. Street Sense never beat older horses, but Curlin has done so 4 straight times including the breeders cup and DWC.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

If they were all still racing today, Curlin would go off at even money against any of last years group. nostalgically looking back at what happened in the Tampa Bay Derby, Kentucky Derby or Belmont does not do justice to what Curlin evolved into.
but yes kudos to multiple gr1 winner Street Sense for gallantly holding off the first level allowance winner Grasshopper at Saratoga. It was his last victory. Street Sense never beat older horses, but Curlin has done so 4 straight times including the breeders cup and DWC.

i was replying to a comment that said no one but curlin won without a race being handed to them, i disagree with that contention. the season lasts all years, regardless of how each horse started or finished it, you have to consider the entire season.
also, keep in mind that curlin was not the only one to defeat older, hard spun and any given saturday did as well. i think it was a level crop, with curlin only getting a nod now because he is still racing. of course you can only speculate on how good the others would be-but i don't think you can knock them back a few pegs on how they did last year, due to the fact they aren't racing this year.
the breeders cup had the same hard spun, street sense, etc that curlin faced all year. the older horses were laughable last year.
i think curlin is a good horse who is being elevated by many due to having the best of circumstances more so than the best of talent.

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

If they were all still racing today, Curlin would go off at even money against any of last years group. nostalgically looking back at what happened in the Tampa Bay Derby, Kentucky Derby or Belmont does not do justice to what Curlin evolved into.
but yes kudos to multiple gr1 winner Street Sense for gallantly holding off the first level allowance winner Grasshopper at Saratoga. It was his last victory. Street Sense never beat older horses, but Curlin has done so 4 straight times including the breeders cup and DWC.

Nafzger never used an illegal edge in his life. His horses were never drugged. However, Assmussen's all are. Thus, I think Street Sense is a significantly better horse and will be a top notch sire. Curlin will be a bust.

Name me one Assmussen runner that went on to be a top notch sire. I can think of at least one Nafzger runner that went on to great things as a sire, Unbridled.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

How many 3yo champions go through a season undefeated?

No one said he wasnt the best horse in the end but he was far from undefeated, especially against the three year olds. He lost the derby, he lost the belmont, he won the Preakness by a nose, he lost the haskell. That is NOT heads and shoulders above anybody. Did he wind up as the best horse? Yes. But to say he was heads and shoulders above the other three year olds is hindsight. He ran in six 3 yo stakes i believe and lost half of them. The win over Lawyer Ron was nice but Lawyer Ron was beaten badly by the other three year olds next out so he is a poor measuring stick. He was very good in the BC and i guess these days thats all that counts. He would be heads and shoulders against this group this year.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

No one said he wasnt the best horse in the end but he was far from undefeated, especially against the three year olds. He lost the derby, he lost the belmont, he won the Preakness by a nose, he lost the haskell. That is NOT heads and shoulders above anybody.

You act like he wasn't clearly the best horse coming into the Derby - and you act like you didn't even bother to watch any of those four races you speak of - just happened to notice the final results.

He had an impossible trip in the Derby, he was MUCH better than his margin of victory in the Preakness, he was caught inside behind a slow pace in the Belmont and still answered the bell, and he had an impossible task in the Haskell racing wide off of a layoff over a track where the rail was extremely live.

If you want to pretend like that series of four races proved that he wasn't conclusively better than the rest of the 3yo males - go on.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

You act like he wasn't clearly the best horse coming into the Derby - and you act like you didn't even bother to watch any of those four races you speak of - just happened to notice the final results.

He had an impossible trip in the Derby, he was MUCH better than his margin of victory in the Preakness, he was caught inside behind a slow pace in the Belmont and still answered the bell, and he had an impossible task in the Haskell racing wide off of a layoff over a track where the rail was extremely live.

If you want to pretend like that series of four races proved that he wasn't conclusively better than the rest of the 3yo males - go on.

You are absolutely correct in modern day thinking. It is not what they did, it is what might have happened if everything worked out. You have a huge career in the breeding business (horses)

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You are absolutely correct in modern day thinking. It is not what they did, it is what might have happened if everything worked out. You have a huge career in the breeding business (horses)

It is what they did.

And I have no plans of getting into the breeding business anytime soon - horses or humans.

Not until Emily dumps the Silent Bob after the Nutra-Sytem diet looking guy and comes back to me.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

You act like he wasn't clearly the best horse coming into the Derby - and you act like you didn't even bother to watch any of those four races you speak of - just happened to notice the final results.

He had an impossible trip in the Derby, he was MUCH better than his margin of victory in the Preakness, he was caught inside behind a slow pace in the Belmont and still answered the bell, and he had an impossible task in the Haskell racing wide off of a layoff over a track where the rail was extremely live.

If you want to pretend like that series of four races proved that he wasn't conclusively better than the rest of the 3yo males - go on.

This is more of what was discussed a few weeks ago whereby any trip cap post mortum allows the annointing of whomever the advocate cares to advance. It's you doing the pretending by being unable to take out of the equation the post-Derby knowledge... Trot out whatever after-the-fact conclusion you want to, but Curlin wasn't "clearly the best horse coming into the Derby."

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Trot out whatever after-the-fact conclusion you want to, but Curlin wasn't "clearly the best horse coming into the Derby."

Why was he not?

And would it be an after the fact conclusion on my part if I said so much before the race?

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...ghlight=post13 (post #13)