4/5-6 Weekend Beyers

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

That's a strong number from Zenyatta.

Have to applaud Shirreffs, who I will get on ATR tomorrow, for this stunning sweep at Hot Springs.. Hollendorfer too gets a nod for confidence taking Heatseeker out of his comfort zone (grass/poly) and getting a run like that from him.

More and more, the tracks we're all going to look to for REAL horses will be Oaklawn, Fair Grounds, Churchill, NY and FL... Yesterday demonstrated the disparity between authentic thoroughbred racing and the sideshow of the synthetic tracks where results are random and generally meaningless.

[freddymo]

More and more, the tracks we're all going to look to for REAL horses will be Oaklawn, Fair Grounds, Churchill, NY and FL... Yesterday demonstrated the disparity between authentic thoroughbred racing and the sideshow of the synthetic tracks where results are random and generally meaningless.[/quote]
Results are never meaningless...They are what they are...It's up to each person to interprete the results and draw conclusions from them. Suggesting that Absolute Cindy's win at Turfway against the boys is meaningless isn't ok. She had a dream set up but she still beat colts in Feb/March which is quite the accomplshment for any filly.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by Kasept

More and more, the tracks we're all going to look to for REAL horses will be Oaklawn, Fair Grounds, Churchill, NY and FL... Yesterday demonstrated the disparity between authentic thoroughbred racing and the sideshow of the synthetic tracks where results are random and generally meaningless.

While I agree with you comments as they apply to FG and CD, which are LEGITIMATELY FAIR tracks, I certainly don't think the same applies, in general, to NY or FL racing. GP and TAM certainly don't play as fair as the above two tracks, and NY winter racing is a JOKE. And, betting closers, the little that I've seen, at OP is a quick path to the poor house.

By 'fair', I mean horses having an equal chance to win from off the pace.

I certainly disagree, and disagree strongly with your assessment of POLY. Of course, this is the standard take, and thus I'm in the minority. Horses having a competitive chance to win from behind does not imply that the results will be 'randon and generally meaningless'.

The fight on this forum (and others) AGAINST fair racing rivals that of the Aristotelians against the Copernicans. I realize it involves a conceptual shift and the present system won't allow for it.

Let's face it, having an advantage because you have the lead is something unique in racing in general. It only happens in thoroughbred DIRT races.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

While I agree with you comments as they apply to FG and CD, which are LEGITIMATELY FAIR tracks, I certainly don't think the same applies, in general, to NY or FL racing. GP and TAM certainly don't play as fair as the above two tracks, and NY winter racing is a JOKE. And, betting closers, the little that I've seen, at OP is a quick path to the poor house.

By 'fair', I mean horses having an equal chance to win from off the pace.

I certainly disagree, and disagree strongly with your assessment of POLY. Of course, this is the standard take, and thus I'm in the minority. Horses having a competitive chance to win from behind does not imply that the results will be 'randon and generally meaningless'.

The fight on this forum (and others) AGAINST fair racing rivals that of the Aristotelians against the Copernicans. I realize it involves a conceptual shift and the present system won't allow for it.

Let's face it, having an advantage because you have the lead is something unique in racing in general. It only happens in thoroughbred DIRT races.

You have this thing against frontrunners which I don't understand. Having an advantage in the lead is NOT unique to thoroughbred dirt racing- how many humans win sprints when they break in the back of the pack? Or swimmers going 100 meters? Not many, and from an energy expenditure perspective a 6F horse race is akin to humans sprinting 100 meters. An additional benefit of running up front is you're guaranteed a clear path, which is not a hinderance in human sprint races as lanes are defined. A third benefit in cheaper/maiden races is the mentality of horses- they are, by nature, pack animals. Many of them don't get trained well enough to learn how to pass another one [this does not apply to top class or older horses].

While I don't disagree with your analysis of the Aqueduct inner, I don't understand why you continue to fight it. Betting closers and outside posts on the inner is a quick trip to the poor house- so why not embrace rather than fight?

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by philcski

You have this thing against frontrunners which I don't understand. Having an advantage in the lead is NOT unique to thoroughbred dirt racing- how many humans win sprints when they break in the back of the pack? Or swimmers going 100 meters? Not many, and from an energy expenditure perspective a 6F horse race is akin to humans sprinting 100 meters. An additional benefit of running up front is you're guaranteed a clear path, which is not a hinderance in human sprint races as lanes are defined. A third benefit in cheaper/maiden races is the mentality of horses- they are, by nature, pack animals. Many of them don't get trained well enough to learn how to pass another one [this does not apply to top class or older horses].

While I don't disagree with your analysis of the Aqueduct inner, I don't understand why you continue to fight it. Betting closers and outside posts on the inner is a quick trip to the poor house- so why not embrace rather than fight?

Wow comparing human's to Tb's congratulations this is world class stuff... The point is Syn racing is no more or less quarky then other dirt based venues..

[philcski]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Wow comparing human's to Tb's congratulations this is world class stuff... The point is Syn racing is no more or less quarky then other dirt based venues..

Disagree completely. Keeneland/Del Mar poly form has been proven over and over to have no relevance on any other surface.

I have no problem with synthetics if the results make reasonable sense, like Hollywood's synthetic surface (although it does level the playingfield between "good" and "really good"). I have a problem with a statement that "only in American dirt racing is being a frontrunner an advantage"- and in another thread he brought up auto racing/cycling as a comparison.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by philcski

Disagree completely. Keeneland/Del Mar poly form has been proven over and over to have no relevance on any other surface.

I have no problem with synthetics if the results make reasonable sense, like Hollywood's synthetic surface (although it does level the playingfield between "good" and "really good"). I have a problem with a statement that "only in American dirt racing is being a frontrunner an advantage"- and in another thread he brought up auto racing/cycling as a comparison.

Take an 2 turn cheap speed Inner superstar and have him race on a syn track or a fair dirt track and you will get the same result.. A loser... Have him race at hawthorne he is a superstar again.. How is it any different then any other median... Horses for courses always applies

[philcski]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Take an 2 turn cheap speed Inner superstar and have him race on a syn track or a fair dirt track and you will get the same result.. A loser... Have him race at hawthorne he is a superstar again.. How is it any different then any other median... Horses for courses always applies

Don't disagree about the inner, as stated before... love this time in NY when they first come off the inner for the reasons you've given.

Be nice to my guy Drugs though, he actually has a job (writer for a newspaper) which is a much better job than mine.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by philcski

You have this thing against frontrunners which I don't understand. Having an advantage in the lead is NOT unique to thoroughbred dirt racing- how many humans win sprints when they break in the back of the pack? Or swimmers going 100 meters? Not many, and from an energy expenditure perspective a 6F horse race is akin to humans sprinting 100 meters. An additional benefit of running up front is you're guaranteed a clear path, which is not a hinderance in human sprint races as lanes are defined. A third benefit in cheaper/maiden races is the mentality of horses- they are, by nature, pack animals. Many of them don't get trained well enough to learn how to pass another one [this does not apply to top class or older horses].

While I don't disagree with your analysis of the Aqueduct inner, I don't understand why you continue to fight it. Betting closers and outside posts on the inner is a quick trip to the poor house- so why not embrace rather than fight?

Sprinters, in track events, run in INDIVIDUAL lanes-- thus drafting doesn't come into play. Put horses in individual lanes, without kickback and tight spots, and you might see a different type of racing.

Swimmers really don't go fast enough YET they do DRAFT, to their advantage, by coming over as far as possible in their lane ---guess you're not paying attention to the commentators

Get on your bike and experiment

You really are misinformed on the subject

I don't bet closers on the inner. I don't bet the inner. My beef with the AQU in the winter is that NYRA makes no effort to ensure a fair track. This is fine in bush tracks but in NY?

My running style preference really is not the issue, however. It's the repeated bashing of POLY as being something other than representative of what racing should be that gets to me. Dirt racing does things ASS backwards; it's contrary to natural laws. You guys can fight this all you want but sooner or later you need to broaden your scope of the game.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Sprinters, in track events, run in INDIVIDUAL lanes-- thus drafting doesn't come into play. Put horses in individual lanes, without kickback and tight spots, and you might see a different type of racing.

Swimmers really don't go fast enough YET they do DRAFT, to their advantage, by coming over as far as possible in their lane ---guess you're not paying attention to the commentators

Get on your bike and experiment

You really are misinformed on the subject

I don't bet closers on the inner. I don't bet the inner. My beef with the AQU in the winter is that NYRA makes no effort to ensure a fair track. This is fine in bush tracks but in NY?

My running style preference really is not the issue, however. It's the repeated bashing of POLY as being something other than representative of what racing should be that gets to me. Dirt racing does things ASS backwards; it's contrary to natural laws. You guys can fight this all you want but sooner or later you need to broaden your scope of the game.

How is top-class horses running 1:14 for 6F and repeatedly stopping representative of what racing should be?

[cmorioles]

My biggest problem with synthetics is that they are taking dirt courses and turning them into turf courses. We already have turf racing, and that is all this really stuff really is. TFM likes turf racing, so of course he likes synthetic courses.

While drafting might play a small role, it is more about the properties of the surface itself. And for about the zillionith time, just because somebody doesn't like the racing on fake stuff doesn't mean they don't know how to bet it or how to interpret results. It is possible they just find it extremely boring where nothing happens until the end. About the only thing worth watching is the dumbass jockeys that move before they enter the stretch. That is always good for a laugh.