4/5-6 Weekend Beyers

[Kasept]

Oaklawn H: Tiago/Heatseeker OP 05 Apr 1 1/8M 110

Carter H: Bustin Stones AQU 05 Apr 7F 109

Excelsior: Temporary Saint AQU 05 Apr 1 1/8M 105

Apple Blossom: Zenyatta (f) OP 05 Apr 1 1/16M 104

Bay Shore: J Be K AQU 05 Apr 7F 100


Here are the winning Beyer Speed Figures for last week's stakes races:

*Oaklawn (OP): Tiago (J. Shirreffs/M. Smith) - 110

*Carter (Aqu): Bustin Stones (B. Levine/E. Prado) - 109
*Excelsior (Aqu): Temporary Saint (B. Levine/C. Lopez) - 105
*Apple Blossom (OP): Zenyatta (J. Shirreffs/M. Smith) - 104
*Arcadia (SA): Daytona - Ire (D. Hendricks/A. Solis) - 103
*Illinois Derby (Haw): Recapture the Glory (L. Roussel III/E. Baird) - 102
*Bay Shore (Aqu): J Be K (S. Asmussen/G. Gomez) - 100
*Bachelor (OP): Lantana Mob (S. Asmussen/L. Quinonez) - 100

*Fantasy (OP): Eight Belles (J. Jones/R. Dominguez) - 99
*Lafayette (KEE): Keep Laughing (K. McLaughlin/J. Velazquez) - 99
*Potrero Grande (SA): Greg's Gold (D. Hofmans/V. Espinoza) - 97
*Pan American (GP): Presious Passion (M. Hartmann/A. Smith) - 97
*Primonetta (Lrl): Hungarian Boatbaby (A. Dutrow/A. Castellano Jr.) - 96
*Sensational Star (SA): Lucky J. H. (C. Gaines/V. Espinoza) - 96
*California Turf Sprint Championship (BM): Bonfante (R. McAnally/F. Alvarado) - 95
*Santa Anita Derby (SA): Colonel John (E. Harty/C. Nakatani) - 95
*Sam Houston Turf Sprint Cup (Hou): Smitty's Sunshine (M. Nicks/E. Martin Jr.) - 95
*Hilton Garden Inn Sprint (Tam): Blue Pepsi Lodge (K. Ziadie/W. Henry) - 94
*OBS Sophomore (Tam): Repenting (J. Ness/D. Centeno) - 94
*Las Flores (SA): Tiz Elemental (C. Gaines/V. Espinoza) - 94
*James M. Levitch Illinois Owners (Haw): Distorted Groom (O. Rainwater/J. Lantz) - 93
*Cherokee River Stables Turf Classic (Tam): Soldier's Dancer (D. Vivian/D. Centeno) - 93
*Wood Memorial (Aqu): Tale of Ekati (B. Tagg/E. Prado) - 93
*Valentine Dancer (SA): Tiz a Blend (C. Gaines/V. Espinoza) - 93
*John B. Connally Turf (Hou): Scrappy Roo (J. Locke/P. Nolan) - 91
*Meafara (Haw): La Wildcat (B. Flint/T. Thornton) - 90
*Wildcat (TuP): Mighty Bodacious (D. Vannorsdel/R. Eikleberry) - 90

*Ashland (Kee): Little Belle (K. McLaughlin/R. Maragh) - 88
*L and D Farm Turf Distaff (Tam): Bayou's Lassie (C. Clement/D. Centeno) - 87
*Central Bank Transylvania (Kee): Boss Lafitte (T. Amoss/R. Albarado) - 86
*Jersey Lilly (Hou): Barbette (D. Pish/Q. Hamilton) - 85
*Dayton Andrews Dodge Sophomore Turf (Tam): El Sultry Sun (J. Kimmel/J. Velez Jr.) - 84
*Providencia (SA): Missit - Ire (B. Cecil/V. Espinoza) - 84
*Stonehedge Farm South Soph. Fillies (Tam): Moonshine Alice (G. Bennett/A. Ramgeet) -80

That's a strong number from Zenyatta.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

That's a strong number from Zenyatta.

Have to applaud Shirreffs, who I will get on ATR tomorrow, for this stunning sweep at Hot Springs.. Hollendorfer too gets a nod for confidence taking Heatseeker out of his comfort zone (grass/poly) and getting a run like that from him.

More and more, the tracks we're all going to look to for REAL horses will be Oaklawn, Fair Grounds, Churchill, NY and FL... Yesterday demonstrated the disparity between authentic thoroughbred racing and the sideshow of the synthetic tracks where results are random and generally meaningless.

[freddymo]

More and more, the tracks we're all going to look to for REAL horses will be Oaklawn, Fair Grounds, Churchill, NY and FL... Yesterday demonstrated the disparity between authentic thoroughbred racing and the sideshow of the synthetic tracks where results are random and generally meaningless.[/quote]
Results are never meaningless...They are what they are...It's up to each person to interprete the results and draw conclusions from them. Suggesting that Absolute Cindy's win at Turfway against the boys is meaningless isn't ok. She had a dream set up but she still beat colts in Feb/March which is quite the accomplshment for any filly.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by Kasept

More and more, the tracks we're all going to look to for REAL horses will be Oaklawn, Fair Grounds, Churchill, NY and FL... Yesterday demonstrated the disparity between authentic thoroughbred racing and the sideshow of the synthetic tracks where results are random and generally meaningless.

While I agree with you comments as they apply to FG and CD, which are LEGITIMATELY FAIR tracks, I certainly don't think the same applies, in general, to NY or FL racing. GP and TAM certainly don't play as fair as the above two tracks, and NY winter racing is a JOKE. And, betting closers, the little that I've seen, at OP is a quick path to the poor house.

By 'fair', I mean horses having an equal chance to win from off the pace.

I certainly disagree, and disagree strongly with your assessment of POLY. Of course, this is the standard take, and thus I'm in the minority. Horses having a competitive chance to win from behind does not imply that the results will be 'randon and generally meaningless'.

The fight on this forum (and others) AGAINST fair racing rivals that of the Aristotelians against the Copernicans. I realize it involves a conceptual shift and the present system won't allow for it.

Let's face it, having an advantage because you have the lead is something unique in racing in general. It only happens in thoroughbred DIRT races.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

While I agree with you comments as they apply to FG and CD, which are LEGITIMATELY FAIR tracks, I certainly don't think the same applies, in general, to NY or FL racing. GP and TAM certainly don't play as fair as the above two tracks, and NY winter racing is a JOKE. And, betting closers, the little that I've seen, at OP is a quick path to the poor house.

By 'fair', I mean horses having an equal chance to win from off the pace.

I certainly disagree, and disagree strongly with your assessment of POLY. Of course, this is the standard take, and thus I'm in the minority. Horses having a competitive chance to win from behind does not imply that the results will be 'randon and generally meaningless'.

The fight on this forum (and others) AGAINST fair racing rivals that of the Aristotelians against the Copernicans. I realize it involves a conceptual shift and the present system won't allow for it.

Let's face it, having an advantage because you have the lead is something unique in racing in general. It only happens in thoroughbred DIRT races.

You have this thing against frontrunners which I don't understand. Having an advantage in the lead is NOT unique to thoroughbred dirt racing- how many humans win sprints when they break in the back of the pack? Or swimmers going 100 meters? Not many, and from an energy expenditure perspective a 6F horse race is akin to humans sprinting 100 meters. An additional benefit of running up front is you're guaranteed a clear path, which is not a hinderance in human sprint races as lanes are defined. A third benefit in cheaper/maiden races is the mentality of horses- they are, by nature, pack animals. Many of them don't get trained well enough to learn how to pass another one [this does not apply to top class or older horses].

While I don't disagree with your analysis of the Aqueduct inner, I don't understand why you continue to fight it. Betting closers and outside posts on the inner is a quick trip to the poor house- so why not embrace rather than fight?

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by philcski

You have this thing against frontrunners which I don't understand. Having an advantage in the lead is NOT unique to thoroughbred dirt racing- how many humans win sprints when they break in the back of the pack? Or swimmers going 100 meters? Not many, and from an energy expenditure perspective a 6F horse race is akin to humans sprinting 100 meters. An additional benefit of running up front is you're guaranteed a clear path, which is not a hinderance in human sprint races as lanes are defined. A third benefit in cheaper/maiden races is the mentality of horses- they are, by nature, pack animals. Many of them don't get trained well enough to learn how to pass another one [this does not apply to top class or older horses].

While I don't disagree with your analysis of the Aqueduct inner, I don't understand why you continue to fight it. Betting closers and outside posts on the inner is a quick trip to the poor house- so why not embrace rather than fight?

Wow comparing human's to Tb's congratulations this is world class stuff... The point is Syn racing is no more or less quarky then other dirt based venues..

[philcski]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Wow comparing human's to Tb's congratulations this is world class stuff... The point is Syn racing is no more or less quarky then other dirt based venues..

Disagree completely. Keeneland/Del Mar poly form has been proven over and over to have no relevance on any other surface.

I have no problem with synthetics if the results make reasonable sense, like Hollywood's synthetic surface (although it does level the playingfield between "good" and "really good"). I have a problem with a statement that "only in American dirt racing is being a frontrunner an advantage"- and in another thread he brought up auto racing/cycling as a comparison.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by philcski

You have this thing against frontrunners which I don't understand. Having an advantage in the lead is NOT unique to thoroughbred dirt racing- how many humans win sprints when they break in the back of the pack? Or swimmers going 100 meters? Not many, and from an energy expenditure perspective a 6F horse race is akin to humans sprinting 100 meters. An additional benefit of running up front is you're guaranteed a clear path, which is not a hinderance in human sprint races as lanes are defined. A third benefit in cheaper/maiden races is the mentality of horses- they are, by nature, pack animals. Many of them don't get trained well enough to learn how to pass another one [this does not apply to top class or older horses].

While I don't disagree with your analysis of the Aqueduct inner, I don't understand why you continue to fight it. Betting closers and outside posts on the inner is a quick trip to the poor house- so why not embrace rather than fight?

Sprinters, in track events, run in INDIVIDUAL lanes-- thus drafting doesn't come into play. Put horses in individual lanes, without kickback and tight spots, and you might see a different type of racing.

Swimmers really don't go fast enough YET they do DRAFT, to their advantage, by coming over as far as possible in their lane ---guess you're not paying attention to the commentators

Get on your bike and experiment

You really are misinformed on the subject

I don't bet closers on the inner. I don't bet the inner. My beef with the AQU in the winter is that NYRA makes no effort to ensure a fair track. This is fine in bush tracks but in NY?

My running style preference really is not the issue, however. It's the repeated bashing of POLY as being something other than representative of what racing should be that gets to me. Dirt racing does things ASS backwards; it's contrary to natural laws. You guys can fight this all you want but sooner or later you need to broaden your scope of the game.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Sprinters, in track events, run in INDIVIDUAL lanes-- thus drafting doesn't come into play. Put horses in individual lanes, without kickback and tight spots, and you might see a different type of racing.

Swimmers really don't go fast enough YET they do DRAFT, to their advantage, by coming over as far as possible in their lane ---guess you're not paying attention to the commentators

Get on your bike and experiment

You really are misinformed on the subject

I don't bet closers on the inner. I don't bet the inner. My beef with the AQU in the winter is that NYRA makes no effort to ensure a fair track. This is fine in bush tracks but in NY?

My running style preference really is not the issue, however. It's the repeated bashing of POLY as being something other than representative of what racing should be that gets to me. Dirt racing does things ASS backwards; it's contrary to natural laws. You guys can fight this all you want but sooner or later you need to broaden your scope of the game.

How is top-class horses running 1:14 for 6F and repeatedly stopping representative of what racing should be?

[JJP]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Oaklawn H: Tiago/Heatseeker OP 05 Apr 1 1/8M 110

Carter H: Bustin Stones AQU 05 Apr 7F 109

Excelsior: Temporary Saint AQU 05 Apr 1 1/8M 105

Apple Blossom: Zenyatta (f) OP 05 Apr 1 1/16M 104

Bay Shore: J Be K AQU 05 Apr 7F 100



More to come...

Any figure for Recapturetheglory?

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by JJP

Any figure for Recapturetheglory?

102

Tale of Ekati/War Pass coming back as a 93.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Apparently in the 102.

The Ill Derby has a history of front end winners producing crazy fast figures.

* Last year, Cowtown Cat went wire-to-wire and was given just a 98 Beyer figure after running a time that suggested he ran significantly faster. BRIS didn't adjust there figure...and had him running faster than Holy Bull ever had on there numbers - he went on to finish 20th in the Derby while having the highest last out BRIS fig in the entire field.

* Two years ago, Sweetnorthersaint sat second less than a length off of pace setter Mr. Triester (who stayed on to finish 2nd) - he put him away, won by 9, got huge figures from all figure makers and was bet to Derby favortisim.

* Three years ago, Greeley's Galazy stalked the pace from up close and won with a 106 Beyer that might have been reduced a little if I recall. He never ran back to it.

* Four years ago, Pollards Vision went wire-to-wire and ran a 107 Beyer. He returned to run 17th beaten 40 lengths in the Derby.

War Emblem famously won the Ill Derby wire-to-wire and earned a huge figure - but his win came at Sportsman's Park and not Hawthorne I believe.

[Riot]

It's interesting. I long ago stopped considering figures as "objective", but rather an, "educated comparative evaluation of performance".

[philcski]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

The Ill Derby has a history of front end winners producing crazy fast figures.

* Last year, Cowtown Cat went wire-to-wire and was given just a 98 Beyer figure after running a time that suggested he ran significantly faster. BRIS didn't adjust there figure...and had him running faster than Holy Bull ever had on there numbers - he went on to finish 20th in the Derby while having the highest last out BRIS fig in the entire field.

* Two years ago, Sweetnorthersaint sat second less than a length off of pace setter Mr. Triester (who stayed on to finish 2nd) - he put him away, won by 9, got huge figures from all figure makers and was bet to Derby favortisim.

* Three years ago, Greeley's Galazy stalked the pace from up close and won with a 106 Beyer that might have been reduced a little if I recall. He never ran back to it.

* Four years ago, Pollards Vision went wire-to-wire and ran a 107 Beyer. He returned to run 17th beaten 40 lengths in the Derby.

War Emblem famously won the Ill Derby wire-to-wire and earned a huge figure - but his win came at Sportsman's Park and not Hawthorne I believe.

Agreed- and I don't think this one has much of a chance either. Was my one winner from Saturday and salvaged a pretty miserable day of betting the tires @ Kee.

War Emblem's win was at Sportsman's Park, yes. I think they paved the track over and made it into auto racing- I remember driving by it a long time ago on the Stevenson Expressway. Looked like a real dump.

[Kasept]

Arcadia: Daytona 103

IL Derby: Recapturetheglory 102

Pan American: Precious Passion 97

Protero Grande: Greg's Gold 97

SA Derby: Colonel John 95

Wood: Tale of Ekati 93

Ashland: Little Belle/Bsharpsonata 88

Providencia: Missit 84

[smuthg]

I assume nothing on the Fantasy yet?

[JJP]

Originally Posted by philcski

Agreed- and I don't think this one has much of a chance either. Was my one winner from Saturday and salvaged a pretty miserable day of betting the tires @ Kee.

War Emblem's win was at Sportsman's Park, yes. I think they paved the track over and made it into auto racing- I remember driving by it a long time ago on the Stevenson Expressway. Looked like a real dump.

You can't see Hawthorne (or Sportsman's when it existed) from the Stevenson Expressway. You've got to exit on Cicero and go thru a beautiful stretch of real estate in Cicero. At least now they've put in a few strip malls near the track. The area was even worse before.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by JJP

You can't see Hawthorne (or Sportsman's when it existed) from the Stevenson Expressway. You've got to exit on Cicero and go thru a beautiful stretch of real estate in Cicero. At least now they've put in a few strip malls near the track. The area was even worse before.

I guess we had gotten off the expressway and gone up Cicero Ave. My mom's best friend lived in Forest Park (now in Wheeling). Don't remember the area around there too well though...

[favoritetrick]

Originally Posted by Kasept

*Illinois Derby (Haw): Recapture the Glory (L. Roussel III/E. Baird) - 102

Things that make you go hmmmmmm....