PP'S of all these great ones...

[jcs11204]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I thought Peace Rules was a terrific race horse... Not a 'great' in the true sense of the word, but really, really good.

I think you could call the top five from those 13 'great'.. The rest range from near-great to outstanding to very , very good.

1. Point Given
2, Ghostzapper
3. Silverbulletday
4. Congaree
5. Mineshaft

i am shocked... azeri is not great ? i dont care who she beat... she did beat some very good ones though... but anyway
11 grade 1's... if i counted right... as well as a number of grade 2's...

in my opinion she is a legend... i thought for sure 11 grade 1 wins gets you more respect then this

[Danzig]

azeri got most of those races out west, in her hoy year, she only travelled as far east as arlington and oaklawn. when she finally came east, she 'wasn't the same'. a lot of people gave excuse after excuse why she wasn't as good as the year before, but maybe she just wasn't as good as people thought. i enjoyed azeri very much, but i wouldn't call her a true great.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

When Azeri won her debut by open lengths in 1:08 and change - she paid 17/1 to win - however, someone made a killing with her in the multi-win exotics.

The 7/2 second choice won the next race - and the $2 double paid only $74.40 (the parlay was $168.40)

The 3/2 favorite won the following race - and the $1 pick 3 paid only an absurd $47.40 - almost five times less than the parlay!

Just imagine having a 17/1 shot winner, and than catching a 7/2 second choice, and 3/2 favorite in the next two races and getting less than $50 per pop!

When Brad Free wrote about the race - he noted that the P3 was paying only $106 to an 8/1 shot in the last race of the sequence. Imagine hitting a 17/1 over 7/2 over 8/1 P3 and getting that!

It was very odd stuff - because someone was hammering Azeri in the multi-win exotics - but she was a total lobster in the win pool that day.

[jcs11204]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

When Azeri won her debut by open lengths in 1:08 and change - she paid 17/1 to win - however, someone made a killing with her in the multi-win exotics.

The 7/2 second choice won the next race - and the $2 double paid only $74.40 (the parlay was $168.40)

The 3/2 favorite won the following race - and the $1 pick 3 paid only an absurd $47.40 - almost five times less than the parlay!

Just imagine having a 17/1 shot winner, and than catching a 7/2 second choice, and 3/2 favorite in the next two races and getting less than $50 per pop!

When Brad Free wrote about the race - he noted that the P3 was paying only $106 to an 8/1 shot in the last race of the sequence. Imagine hitting a 17/1 over 7/2 over 8/1 P3 and getting that!

It was very odd stuff - because someone was hammering Azeri in the multi-win exotics - but she was a total lobster in the win pool that day.

ok, but is it just me or are ppl giving her no respect. no one could convince me that i am wrong on this one. she won 11 grade 1's, possible 2 bredders cup distaffs if lukas just runs her there, instead of going in one the deepest classics ever. she won the apple blossom twice, won at the spa. and this poster above is saying she did not travel well, thats not true at all

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by jcs11204

ok, but is it just me or are ppl giving her no respect. no one could convince me that i am wrong on this one. she won 11 grade 1's, possible 2 bredders cup distaffs if lukas just runs her there, instead of going in one the deepest classics ever. she won the apple blossom twice, won at the spa. and this poster above is saying she did not travel well, thats not true at all

no, don't put words in my mouth. or posts. when she finally left deseroux, who won the hoy with her and deserves a lot of credit for that, and travelled east, she didn't win like she had on the west coast. many said oh, but last year she was really good, maybe she's tailed off a bit. no, maybe the horses back east were more talented then those she had beat up on out west.
i thought her bc distaff win was very good, i thought she was a very deserving hoy, and got much grief because of it. but when she faced those on the east coast, she no longer looked like the dominating mare she had been in cali.
maybe if she had run in the classic the previous year, she could have won it. it was due to volponi pulling the upset that day that she got hoy..but maybe she wouldn't have.

i gave her plenty of respect when she ran, and took a lot of heat in the discussions about whether she merited HOY that year or not...i thought she did.
but as to whether she belongs in the 'great' category, imo she does not. but that's just my opinion, and in no way am i trying to change yours. i'm just giving you a reason why many would not consider her as great.


also, i think there's a huge difference in giving 'no respect' and not being willing to call a horse 'great'. plenty of room in between.

[jcs11204]

Originally Posted by Danzig

no, don't put words in my mouth. or posts. when she finally left deseroux, who won the hoy with her and deserves a lot of credit for that, and travelled east, she didn't win like she had on the west coast. many said oh, but last year she was really good, maybe she's tailed off a bit. no, maybe the horses back east were more talented then those she had beat up on out west.
i thought her bc distaff win was very good, i thought she was a very deserving hoy, and got much grief because of it. but when she faced those on the east coast, she no longer looked like the dominating mare she had been in cali.
maybe if she had run in the classic the previous year, she could have won it. it was due to volponi pulling the upset that day that she got hoy..but maybe she wouldn't have.

i gave her plenty of respect when she ran, and took a lot of heat in the discussions about whether she merited HOY that year or not...i thought she did.
but as to whether she belongs in the 'great' category, imo she does not. but that's just my opinion, and in no way am i trying to change yours. i'm just giving you a reason why many would not consider her as great.


also, i think there's a huge difference in giving 'no respect' and not being willing to call a horse 'great'. plenty of room in between.

ok i understand your point and respect it. but in my opinion there is no other word then great to describe her 11 grade 1's says it all in my opinion.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Danzig

also, i think there's a huge difference in giving 'no respect' and not being willing to call a horse 'great'. plenty of room in between.

I wouldn't have said Azeri is an all-time great during or after her career - but if you look at how dreadful the fillies and mares have been that have come after her - it starts to push your opinion towards calling her great.

From the 2nd start of her career through the 17th start of her career - she racked up 16 consecutive triple digit Beyer figures and a perfect 9-for-9 record in Grade 1 stake races.

That makes a strong case for her greatness - however, she was beating tremendously moderate horses in a weak division - and the TVG commentators made it unbearable with the way they talked about her.

I know Vic Stauffer wasn't with TVG at the time - but after I heard his nails on the chalkboard "speed of Ruffian, class of Lady's Secret, and heart of Personal Ensign" call - I think it was only a matter of time before he and TVG found each other.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I wouldn't have said Azeri is an all-time great during or after her career - but if you look at how dreadful the fillies and mares have been that have come after her - it starts to push your opinion towards calling her great.

From the 2nd start of her career through the 17th start of her career - she racked up 16 consecutive triple digit Beyer figures and a perfect 9-for-9 record in Grade 1 stake races.

That makes a strong case for her greatness - however, she was beating tremendously moderate horses in a weak division - and the TVG commentators made it unbearable with the way they talked about her.

I know Vic Stauffer wasn't with TVG at the time - but after I heard his nails on the chalkboard "speed of Ruffian, class of Lady's Secret, and heart of Personal Ensign" call - I think it was only a matter of time before he and TVG found each other.

she's certainly better than a lot of horses who have come since. i am very begrudging about giving away 'great' status...i think it's something that should come after some time away from the track--will she still get spoken of years from now? who knows, maybe she will. but yeah, that whole 'speed of ruffian...etc, etc'.. yikes.

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I know Vic Stauffer wasn't with TVG at the time - but after I heard his nails on the chalkboard "speed of Ruffian, class of Lady's Secret, and heart of Personal Ensign" call - I think it was only a matter of time before he and TVG found each other.

How do you think Lava Man felt after Vic called him the original Rags to Riches?

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by cmfhb411

A lot of respect from me. Dominated her division. Big performance in BC at Arlington.
This isn't a knock, but she shouldn't have been voted HOY.
War Emblem had a better case than she did that year.

That hurt my eyes to read.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

How do you think Lava Man felt after Vic called him the original Rags to Riches?

After hearing that in high pitch screaming at the wire in the Gold Cup - Lava Man hasn't been the same since.

Here is a look at Lava Man's early form...note the impressive debut Beyer at the fair circuit...

http://www.drf.com/row/pps/lavaman.pdf