Afleet Alex

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

You know, I was just thinking about recent 3YO's who won the HOY award:

Point Given
Charismatic
Favorite Trick (2YO!!!!)
AP Indy
SUnday Silence

This is totally a new topic, I realize this, but I find it suspect that horses like Favorite Trick and Charismatic won the HOY award, but Afleet Alex and Smarty Jones - two of the best 3YO's we'll see in a while - finished second to Ghostzapper and Saint Liam, respectively.

It is all just luck really. I think most people would agree that Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex were better horses - and had better years - than someone like Charismatic. It just so happened that in 2004 and 2005 there was a fairly clear cut champion in the older horse division. When this is the case, that horse will usually win HOY. In 1999 you had a situation where the BCC was won by Cat Thief who had won only one other stakes race that year, and who had actually been beaten by Charismatic in the Derby. So obviously Cat Thief isn't going to be HOY....thus Charasmatic wins by default.

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by miraja2

It is all just luck really. I think most people would agree that Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex were better horses - and had better years - than someone like Charismatic. It just so happened that in 2004 and 2005 there was a fairly clear cut champion in the older horse division. When this is the case, that horse will usually win HOY. In 1999 you had a situation where the BCC was won by Cat Thief who had won only one other stakes race that year, and who had actually been beaten by Charismatic in the Derby. So obviously Cat Thief isn't going to be HOY....thus Charasmatic wins by default.

I don't know how you can say Smarty and Afleet Alex had better years than Charismatic:

All three won a G2 then 2/3rd's of the Triple Crown, looks pretty even to me. Charismatic got really good in the Lexington Stakes and then went from there...

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Pointg5

I don't know how you can say Smarty and Afleet Alex had better years than Charismatic:

All three won a G2 then 2/3rd's of the Triple Crown, looks pretty even to me. Charismatic got really good in the Lexington Stakes and then went from there...

Smarty Jones won six stakes races in 2004 while Charismatic won three in 1999. Seems like pretty simple math to me.

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Smarty Jones won six stakes races in 2004 while Charismatic won three. Seems like pretty simple math to me.

How many of those were graded? People forget that Smarty needed to win or place in the Arkansas Derby to even qualify for the Kentucky Derby.

[slotdirt]

Lots of horses need to have good showings in their final preps to qualify for the Derby. Smarty had a brilliant 3YO career, I don't think that can be argued. Charismatic - as great as he was - was running in claiming races early in 1999. I think there's a pretty clear distinction betwixt the two.

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Lots of horses need to have good showings in their final preps to qualify for the Derby. Smarty had a brilliant 3YO career, I don't think that can be argued. Charismatic - as great as he was - was running in claiming races early in 1999. I think there's a pretty clear distinction betwixt the two.

They had not figured Charismatic out yet, he did run in 2 Graded Stakes before the Lexington Stakes. I liked all three, but to declare one had a better season than the others, is revisionist history...

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by Pointg5

They had not figured Charismatic out yet, he did run in 2 Graded Stakes before the Lexington Stakes. I liked all three, but to declare one had a better season than the others, is revisionist history...

Do you really think it was? I guess we can look at the competition in the various seasons in which they ran. Some of the best horses Charismatic beat in his Derby year were Lemon Drop Kid, Menifee, Cat Thief, Prime Timber, and Stephen Got Even, to name a few. Meanwhile, Smarty beat Castledale, Rock Hard Ten, Lion Heart, Limehouse, Borrego, Eddington, and Pollard's Vision, not to mention Birdstone and others.

Based on that, I'd still go with Smarty - and I'm not sure it's even that close. Charismatic was a wonderful animal and a great story, but certainly not in the same league as Smarty Jones.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Pointg5

How many of those were graded? People forget that Smarty needed to win or place in the Arkansas Derby to even qualify for the Kentucky Derby.

They both had the same # of graded stakes wins and they both won the Derby, the Preakness, and their last Derby prep. So in that way they are the same, and some other criteria must be used. Outside of those races, Smarty Jones won 3 stakes races and Charismatic won zero. Were races like the Southwest graded? No, but I am willing to bet that it was a better race than the claiming races that Charismatic was competing in.
Now maybe you are right and that wasn't his fault and his connections just hadn't figured him out. But in judging something like HOY you have to go with the results on the track and you can't realistically say that Smarty didn't have a better year overall. He accomplished everything that Char did, + more. Maybe it wasn't a ton more, but it was more nonetheless. Therefore he had a better overall year than Char. If you look at wins, stakes wins, $ earned, overall record....Smarty beats him in all of those things. To me that makes for a better year.

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by miraja2

They both had the same # of graded stakes wins and they both won the Derby, the Preakness, and their last Derby prep. So in that way they are the same, and some other criteria must be used. Outside of those races, Smarty Jones won 3 stakes races and Charismatic won zero. Were races like the Southwest graded? No, but I am willing to bet that it was a better race than the claiming races that Charismatic was competing in.
Now maybe you are right and that wasn't his fault and his connections just hadn't figured him out. But in judging something like HOY you have to go with the results on the track and you can't realistically say that Smarty didn't have a better year overall. He accomplished everything that Char did, + more. Maybe it wasn't a ton more, but it was more nonetheless. Therefore he had a better overall year than Char. If you look at wins, stakes wins, $ earned, overall record....Smarty beats him in all of those things. To me that makes for a better year.

Charismatic ran in the SA Derby as well...

How can you include overall wins for a HOY? I believe the criteria the committe would use would be Graded Stakes, that they are equal...

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Pointg5

Charismatic ran in the SA Derby as well...

How can you include overall wins for a HOY? I believe the criteria the committe would use would be Graded Stakes, that they are equal...

He ran in the SA Derby huh? Well how did he finish?

Smarty Jones won more stakes races and earned more money than Charismatic. Based on that criteria I would say he had a better year. I ask you, is there any criteria in which one could argue that Charismatic had a better year?

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Pointg5

Charismatic ran in the SA Derby as well...

How can you include overall wins for a HOY? I believe the criteria the committe would use would be Graded Stakes, that they are equal...

Well if you want to get technical about it they were not equal in graded stakes. Smarty Jones finished second in the graded stakes race he didn't win, while Charasmatic finished third.
Obviously graded stakes victories is probably the most important criteria used in determining HOY. But if all things are equal in that category - as they are here - other criteria are used. Criteria like total stakes won, money earned, finishes in other graded stakes races etc. In ALL of those categories SJ is better than Char.