Religious Fanatics and War

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Irish,
Thanks for explaining where your thoughts come from.
Mine come from a family that has served, going back to my Great grandfathers in Civil war, my grandfather in WWI, my Dad in WWII.
All were officers.
Then, during Viet Nam, I took a stand. I had many arguements with quite a few people, including my father, and several friends that thought it was completely worthwhile. Obviously, we all know how that turned out.
Three of them came back in flag draped coffins for "proper burial".
What a waste! They never got the chance to have wives, children.
These were kids that grew up in "middle class" families, hoped to go to college on the GI bill when they got out...believed everything the recruiter threw at them. My friend, John, got himself ambushed in Laos trying to rescue parts from a blown up jeep. He lived. But he's never been the same since. Now he lives like a hermit on a mountainside, doesn't talk to very many. He once thought he was going to be an aireonautical (sp) engineer, and even went to Cal...St Luis Obismo to pursue that dream. No way...
his mental state couldn't handle it.

Excuse my rant, but I've seen far too many people destroyed by war, and their willingness to participate in it. Not much good comes out of it.
That's the truth.
Bad things happen when people believe in lies.
DTS

Soldiers aren't believing in lies. They are just doing their job. Most would rather not be fighting, and signed up thinking there would never be a war, but they made a commitment and they honor it.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Soldiers aren't believing in lies. They are just doing their job. Most would rather not be fighting, and signed up thinking there would never be a war, but they made a commitment and they honor it.

Tell that to a widow in Falluja, or a mother in Beirut whose children (two sons) have died.
Yup, they're doing their job. Yup, they made a commitment.
I fail to see the "honor".
Lies are just that...LIES.
To continue to believe that somehow they'll come true (click your heels together three times Dorothy and turn around) will not make the truth happen.
Only when the curtain was torn back so that the "wizard" could be seen for the Oz he created exposed the reality.

I'll repeat, there is no honor in lies. No truth in deception. No security in creating fear.

The truth will stand on its own.

I'm sick of those that make up excuses for attempting to "spin" it otherwise.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Tell that to a widow in Falluja, or a mother in Beirut whose children (two sons) have died.
Yup, they're doing their job. Yup, they made a commitment.
I fail to see the "honor".
Lies are just that...LIES.
To continue to believe that somehow they'll come true (click your heels together three times Dorothy and turn around) will not make the truth happen.
Only when the curtain was torn back so that the "wizard" could be seen for the Oz he created exposed the reality.

I'll repeat, there is no honor in lies. No truth in deception. No security in creating fear.

The truth will stand on its own.

I'm sick of those that make up excuses for attempting to "spin" it otherwise.

You need to stop reading all that commondreams crap. How about joining us in the real world not your "dream" world. The US should never have gone to Iraq, but you seem to forget about the Kurds and Shiite that were slaughtered by the thousands by Sadaam. You love to forget those things. How about the million that were killed in Rwanda while our military sat handcuffed because Clinton couldn't send them in to help because of his fear of looking like a "wag the dog" president. The US military does 100x more good than it does bad. Where were you when people hit by the Tsunami? Sitting on your couch while they were saving people's lives. How about Katrina, they were fixing another Bush mistake, saving lives and helping the people. So all those people who you claimed only signed up because they couldn't find a job in the booming economy seemed to have done more to help people than you probably ever will do.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by boldruler

You need to stop reading all that commondreams crap. How about joining us in the real world not your "dream" world. The US should never have gone to Iraq, but you seem to forget about the Kurds and Shiite that were slaughtered by the thousands by Sadaam. You love to forget those things. How about the million that were killed in Rwanda while our military sat handcuffed because Clinton couldn't send them in to help because of his fear of looking like a "wag the dog" president. The US military does 100x more good than it does bad. Where were you when people hit by the Tsunami? Sitting on your couch while they were saving people's lives. How about Katrina, they were fixing another Bush mistake, saving lives and helping the people. So all those people who you claimed only signed up because they couldn't find a job in the booming economy seemed to have done more to help people than you probably ever will do.

Bold Ruler,
Thank you so much for your judgements of me.
Reread everything I said.
Did I ever mention Rwanda? Katrina? Clinton?
You seem intent on diverting attention from the words I have spoken, and also grasping for Wilson, FDR, Truman...
Geesh! Please get beyond your distortions, accusations, and personal attacks.
Those are more LIES!!!!
Very obvious for those that know anything about debating and "staying on topic".
Are you blaming me for creating a tsunami? A hurricane?
"Good job, Brownie" are the words I heard.

The kids that joined the military because they couldn't afford a college education without the benefits of the GI bill, or because they didn't have sufficient grades to get into their local community college are the ones you feel so sorry for as they sweat under the heavy gear in 110 heat in Iraq.
I didn't create the economy where they were unable to find meaningful jobs.
How come the military is now taking 42 year olds? If the military is so popular, explain why the standards for admission keep being reduced.

Give me a break, Judgemeister.
Each time you post something, you sound like a bigger and bigger idiot.
You are trying to sound like God.
Sorry to tell you, Bold Ruler, YOU'RE NOT! Never will be!

If you have no knowledge of current events, there really is no point in further discussion.
Your arguements are lame.

I'll leave you with a quote that I previously posted.
"He that argues with a fool also demonstrates that he is one".

Done with you Bold God Ruler.

[Danzig]

my son joined the military when he could have easily gone to college or gotten a job. it's what he wanted to do. just like my brother is a fireman because he wanted to be one. my dad was a policeman. my husband and i were both in, because we wanted it. didn't buy any lies, i didn't worry about the gi bill, neither did my husband.
people sometimes tend to try to simplify things, or label things. why people go into the military for instance. just because it doesn't appeal to some, doesn't mean it wouldn't appeal to anyone.
my son is very smart, had enough intelligence to qualify for nuke training to work on the plants on aircraft carriers. he's no dummy, nor is he naive.

Originally Posted by Danzig188

my son joined the military when he could have easily gone to college or gotten a job. it's what he wanted to do. just like my brother is a fireman because he wanted to be one. my dad was a policeman. my husband and i were both in, because we wanted it. didn't buy any lies, i didn't worry about the gi bill, neither did my husband.
people sometimes tend to try to simplify things, or label things. why people go into the military for instance. just because it doesn't appeal to some, doesn't mean it wouldn't appeal to anyone.
my son is very smart, had enough intelligence to qualify for nuke training to work on the plants on aircraft carriers. he's no dummy, nor is he naive.

DTS is one of those very good people that has good intentions but he has this perception of the military that is way out there. Many people in the Democratic Party think this same way and they are killing the party with their anti-military nonsense. You are the second person on this thread, and I will be the third, that know many people in the military that chose it because they wanted to. Not everyone in the military is a right wing republican and not everyone is a democrat either. It leans slightly to the right primarily because there are so many leftwing lunatics out there that live in a fantasy world that think anyone in the military is a baby killer. These are the same pathetic people that spit on soldiers when they returned from Vietnam (I am not saying DTS is one of those, before he jumps down my throat).

Last I checked a guy named Pat Tillman gave up millions of an NFL salary because he felt it was his duty to go serve in the military. The idiots in the Bush White House exploited his death and lied, but that should surprise nobody. The point is there is a big difference between phony draft dodger types like George W and Bill Clinton, and people that really feel a call to serve their country.

[GenuineRisk]

DTS and BR, I'm hopping in just because I like you both and I hate seeing you squabble-- especially since I think you both agree on the biggest point, which is that GW Bush is a horrible man and the Iraq war should never have been started.

I don't think we can really presume to know the reasons every person who joins the military joins it-- though I do know the lower and middle-class have not benefited from the booming economy-- this particular boom, thanks to GW and the Republican Congress's policies, has benefited only the rich. Some of the people there didn't join the military; they joined the National Guard and I think they really got bait-and-switched. But so what they do now? If they go AWOL they get jailed (and how does one manage to go AWOL when one is already in Iraq?). And I think people want to believe that their work means something, no matter what their work may be. Can you imagine what must be going on in the minds of the soldiers there who think all this is for nothing? I do think the military is a perfectly honorable profession-- and it has been hijacked by the Bush cabal into a perfectly dishonorable war.

BR, in all fairness, I don't think the Democratic Party's propensity to attract "lunatics" is why the military leans right. I think it leans right because the Democrats lost the appearance of capability in defense in the wake of Vietnam and the Republicans have been exceptionally good in the last 20 years at framing the arguments to their advantage in an assortment of areas, defense not the least among them. The fact that Rush Limbaugh gets broadcast to the military and Air America does not doesn't help, either (or so I read-- is that true? Do my tax dollars go to sending Limbaugh's show to our boys and girls in uniform? Oh, the humanity! The humanity! Seriously though, that really pisses me off...).

But DTS, that doesn't make the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis any less awful-- I think everyone agrees with you on that! You clearly were affected by Vietnam, as was every young man of your generation, I think (with the possible exception of GW). My stepmom is Cambodian by birth, and survived four years in a labor camp during Pol Pot's regime-- she has some interesting thoughts on America's handling of Vietnam, though she also passionately loves the country that took her in after she fled her homeland in the dead of night. But I still see Cambodia in her eyes.

I can't fathom how men could be so arrogant and hubristic as to do what this Administration did with Iraq-- used a horrific tragedy on our soil as an opportunity to dupe the public into supporting a badly planned, badly funded attack on a nation that had nothing to do with that tragedy, because they needed an excuse to go in there. And I wonder, do the souls of the soldiers dead there and the civilians killed ever haunt them? And I think not-- but they haunt me. But I can't hold the men and women who are the boots on the ground responsible. The ones who participated in Abu Girab (spelling?)- sure. The ones who raped the Iraqi child-- sure. But not the average soldier who is just trying to do his or her job. For them, I pray for a safe return home and for some sort of peace in the wake of the horrors they've seen.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

my son joined the military when he could have easily gone to college or gotten a job. it's what he wanted to do. just like my brother is a fireman because he wanted to be one. my dad was a policeman. my husband and i were both in, because we wanted it. didn't buy any lies, i didn't worry about the gi bill, neither did my husband.
people sometimes tend to try to simplify things, or label things. why people go into the military for instance. just because it doesn't appeal to some, doesn't mean it wouldn't appeal to anyone.
my son is very smart, had enough intelligence to qualify for nuke training to work on the plants on aircraft carriers. he's no dummy, nor is he naive.

My dad was a policeman too, and so is my uncle. My sister graduated in the top 10% of her class, and leaves for the Navy in September. She did not need the GI bill either nor is she a dummy. She is also very smart, and could have easily been a doctor or a veterinarian. Instead, she chose this path by when she had all the options in the world.