Curlin in race #5 at Nad Al Sheba on Thursday!

Originally Posted by philcski

BINGO...

I am NOT an Albarado fan.



To me jockeys are like referees... the less you hear about them, the better. I honestly believe you can count the number of "good" jockeys on one hand right now (Prado, Corny Velasquez, Gomez, ??)

It's just scary that Corny and Gomez are considered top jockeys. Sure they're good, but the fact there isn't anyone outside of Prado that's better is scary.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

It's just scary that Corny and Gomez are considered top jockeys. Sure they're good, but the fact there isn't anyone outside of Prado that's better is scary.

Agree.

Hell, Carol phuckin' CEDENO has a thread on here!!!

[blackthroatedwind]

I think there is something interesting at Gulfstream Saturday concerning racing's newly anointed " greatest trainer " ( by racing's personally anointed " racing genius " ). Understatement debuted on February 7th at 6F and won impressively for trainer Todd Pletcher, who unlike previous years, has few, if any, hopefuls for the TC races. Just three weeks later Understatement is going right from that 6F race to a 1 1/8 mile race which has the feel of a Florida Derby prep for this horse.....which of course, if successful, would be a KY Derby prep for Understatement. Thus, we are now to believe that the many years of developing even a reasonable foundation for a horse was completely wrong, and that rushing one from a three quarter mile race to distance races in a mad dash to make a " big " event is actually the proper way to handle a thoroughbred.

Todd Pletcher is a very good trainer, with an incredible operation, but even if you want to completely pin this on an overzealous owner, it is a bit head scratching. How many good horses have been ruined this way? I don't know the answer....but I know that number had exponentionally increased in recent years. Coincidence?

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I think there is something interesting at Gulfstream Saturday concerning racing's newly anointed " greatest trainer " ( by racing's personally anointed " racing genius " ). Understatement debuted on February 7th at 6F and won impressively for trainer Todd Pletcher, who unlike previous years, has few, if any, hopefuls for the TC races. Just three weeks later Understatement is going right from that 6F race to a 1 1/8 mile race which has the feel of a Florida Derby prep for this horse.....which of course, if successful, would be a KY Derby prep for Understatement. Thus, we are now to believe that the many years of developing even a reasonable foundation for a horse was completely wrong, and that rushing one from a three quarter mile race to distance races in a mad dash to make a " big " event is actually the proper way to handle a thoroughbred.

Todd Pletcher is a very good trainer, with an incredible operation, but even if you want to completely pin this on an overzealous owner, it is a bit head scratching. How many good horses have been ruined this way? I don't know the answer....but I know that number had exponentionally increased in recent years. Coincidence?

I took a quick look at the Condition Book. I don't think there's a n1x going short until mid-March. Maybe that's a factor....

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

I took a quick look at the Condition Book. I don't think there's a n1x going short until mid-March. Maybe that's a factor....

No doubt, Bruce, that Gulfstream doesn't help, but there are other racetracks and, maybe I'm wrong, but I find it hard to believe this rush job is in the best interests of any horse.

[blackthroatedwind]

Plus, I imagine there could be an extra race at 7F or one mile for NW1X if someone asked.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Plus, I imagine there could be an extra race at 7F or one mile for NW1X if someone asked.

I'm sure that's true. I guess if I was the owner and had $1 Million + into this horse (or the trainer) and looked at how Curlin, Street Sense and Barbaro got to the TC, I'd be hard pressed not to take a shot. All three of these got there non-conventionally...

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

I'm sure that's true. I guess if I was the owner and had $1 Million + into this horse (or the trainer) and looked at how Curlin, Street Sense and Barbaro got to the TC, I'd be hard pressed not to take a shot. All three of these got there non-conventionally...

Curlin did......and he was one in a million so to speak. Street Sense and Barbaro? They had very strong bases to build in.

This is not a question of unconventional. This is overzealousness. Good luck to them.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

I'm sure that's true. I guess if I was the owner and had $1 Million + into this horse (or the trainer) and looked at how Curlin, Street Sense and Barbaro got to the TC, I'd be hard pressed not to take a shot. All three of these got there non-conventionally...

Barbaro was a 2 turn sw at 2, albeit on grass. He won a route stake (Tropical Park Derby) on Jan 1 or 2 before moving to dirt. He had far more foundation than this colt of Todd's. I agree with BTW, if they want a race, ask for one. I suppose that last Sunday's race with WP was unacceptable as he'd have had 0 chance to win and that hurts Todd's percentage. FG, OP, AQU and SA have allowance programs. He can ship, I presume? Agreed, it's strange. I think Todd is "pressing" a bit with this one.

[blackthroatedwind]

The scratch of Samba Rooster just helped Understatement ( not that it matters one way or another ). Obviously Bordeaux Bandit is also out for tomorrow's race.

Did just catch John Velasquez fibbing away on some new OTB show. According to him he studies his mounts in the DRF the night before the races, and reiterated that he was glad he did before today's show, and then proceeded to give misinformation about the careers of the first two mounts he was asked about. But, he did mention how much help the jockey's need.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

The scratch of Samba Rooster just helped Understatement ( not that it matters one way or another ). Obviously Bordeaux Bandit is also out for tomorrow's race.

Did just catch John Velasquez fibbing away on some new OTB show. According to him he studies his mounts in the DRF the night before the races, and reiterated that he was glad he did before today's show, and then proceeded to give misinformation about the careers of the first two mounts he was asked about. But, he did mention how much help the jockey's need.

Andy...you think many jocks do that?

[blackthroatedwind]

No.

[Danzig]

in a nutshell btw, curlin and rags are freaks. amazing stuff really.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I think there is something interesting at Gulfstream Saturday concerning racing's newly anointed " greatest trainer " ( by racing's personally anointed " racing genius " ). Understatement debuted on February 7th at 6F and won impressively for trainer Todd Pletcher, who unlike previous years, has few, if any, hopefuls for the TC races. Just three weeks later Understatement is going right from that 6F race to a 1 1/8 mile race which has the feel of a Florida Derby prep for this horse.....which of course, if successful, would be a KY Derby prep for Understatement. Thus, we are now to believe that the many years of developing even a reasonable foundation for a horse was completely wrong, and that rushing one from a three quarter mile race to distance races in a mad dash to make a " big " event is actually the proper way to handle a thoroughbred.

Todd Pletcher is a very good trainer, with an incredible operation, but even if you want to completely pin this on an overzealous owner, it is a bit head scratching. How many good horses have been ruined this way? I don't know the answer....but I know that number had exponentionally increased in recent years. Coincidence?

Good call BTW. I didn't know that you knew about that stuff. The truth is a lot of trainers make moves like this, and you know it. Take Curlin for example or Bellamy Road. Racing a mile and a quarter off of a huge layoff is not my idea of a good training job. Racing Curlin in 5 races in 15 weeks is not my idea of a good training job, even though Curlin was able to withstand it because he is a freak. Moves like that ruin a lot of horses. Moves like the one Pletcher made with that horse ruin a lot of horses. Racing horses back too soon when they just run a really hard race ruins a lot of horses. Take Indyanne or Magnificence for example. Does this mean these guys are bad trainers? No (even though Asmussen or Headly wouldn't ever get near my horses). It just means that they may be recieving a lot of pressure from clients, or they may get a little bit too overzealous.

I've even seen Mandella make moves with horses that were puzzling, and he is a great trainer. He loves his horses, and I truly believe that he does what he thinks is best for them. Probably my favorite trainers are Frankel and Tagg.

I can't deny that Pletcher is the best trainer in the country right now. He wins, and wins, and wins. Sure he makes mistakes...all of them do. All of them have ruined horses for one reason or another...whether it be poor judgment on their part or going with what their clients say so they don't lose the client. But, Pletcher wouldn't be at the top if he wasn't great. He wouldn't have gotten the caliber of horses that he did and the clients that he did in the first place if everyone didn't think he was an outstanding trainer. He has proven results.

I am hardly a racing genius. In fact, I don't know anyone that is a racing genius. It is impossible for me to consider anyone a genius in horse racing because most aren't even right 50% of the time. Another attempt to be picking...

I don't dislike you at all, but I really don't understand you sometimes or why you make the remarks that you do....

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Times have changed. Gone are the days of the truly great horses. Gone are the days of horses like Seattle Slew and Spectacular Bid. Gone are the days of horses that can handle the TC or stay sound enough to race as a four year old.

That is why in ten years, I say that Curlin will be considered a great horse. Because we will rarely ever see a great three year old race as a four year old. He is doing the unthinkable...we are seeing a shadow of the true greats in him. He is taking racing back in time.

I think Curlin is a great horse. He is in that same realm as the great horses of past years even though he didn't have the foundation necessary to win the Derby, and ran into another freak in the Belmont. He is that talented, and of the right type. He looks like one of them. If he races throughout the year (holding my breath...probably won't, but I didn't think he would ever run in Dubai), I think he will establish himself as such. In my eyes, he is exactly what racing needs, and I thank Jess Jackson for letting us see him this year(even though we don't know the real motive unless he is being sincere).

If he races throughout the year, it will be one heck of a ride. I obviously wasn't around in the 70s, and he is giving me a glimpse of what it was like to be around when those horses were running. When I see him, I almost get teary eyed in awe...I know that I am witnessing something phenomenal. He gives me that high.

How many horses in today's racing world would still be sound enough to go a mile and a quarter off of a long layoff carrying that much weight...winning on top of it all after a very tough 3 year old season, and still be able to win the Dubai World Cup? If he wins in Dubai, it will truly be something special.

I think that it is a little unfair to say that Curlin won't be considered great just yet...

By the way, great horses that have not won the TC.
Spectacular Bid among many others....

Great horses that haven't won the Derby...
The Grey Ghost, Man O' War, Seabiscuit, Cigar, etc.....

[blackthroatedwind]

Does anybody have the cliff notes to those two gargantuan posts? I only made it as far as the inane comparison to Bellamy Road before I vomited and moved on.

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Does anybody have the cliff notes to those two gargantuan posts? I only made it as far as the inane comparison to Bellamy Road before I vomited and moved on.

you made the right move

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Does anybody have the cliff notes to those two gargantuan posts? I only made it as far as the inane comparison to Bellamy Road before I vomited and moved on.

you mean you made it past 'i didn't know you knew that stuff'?

Whew.

[Danzig]

i'm just wondering how someone who didn't see the 70's can then say this is a glimpse of what it was like. it's nothing like it at all.