Discreet Cat

John Henry was a great. His career makes Ghostzapper look like a joke.

Ghostzapper raced 11x in 4 seasons.

John Henry 83 starts, 39 wins, 15 seconds, and 9 thirds.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by boldruler

John Henry was a great. His career makes Ghostzapper look like a joke.

Ghostzapper raced 11x in 4 seasons.

John Henry 83 starts, 39 wins, 15 seconds, and 9 thirds.

Let's not forget Easy Goer either... who won grade 1's at 2, 3 and 4 years of age.

[Unbridled]

Originally Posted by boldruler

You can't be a great horse with his record. That is ridiculous to classify him as great..................

John Henry was a great. His career makes Ghostzapper look like a joke.

Ghostzapper raced 11x in 4 seasons.

John Henry 83 starts, 39 wins, 15 seconds, and 9 thirds.

Bold, seriously, you gotta think about your arguments some. You classify Bernardini as great off of his 114 beyer. the zapper repeatedly ran 120+ beyers and negative Rags and had enough speed to win sprints and races at the classic distance. how is he not great? John Henry was a GELDING, thus no breeding value so they kept running him. Might as well compare John Henry to Eclipse, makes about as much sense as comparing Ghostzapper to John Henry. Find a tape of his last race in the Met Mile-one of the most impressive efforts by any horse in the past 25 years.

Originally Posted by Unbridled

Bold, seriously, you gotta think about your arguments some. You classify Bernardini as great off of his 114 beyer. the zapper repeatedly ran 120+ beyers and negative Rags and had enough speed to win sprints and races at the classic distance. how is he not great? John Henry was a GELDING, thus no breeding value so they kept running him. Might as well compare John Henry to Eclipse, makes about as much sense as comparing Ghostzapper to John Henry. Find a tape of his last race in the Met Mile-one of the most impressive efforts by any horse in the past 25 years.

I classify Bernardini as great if he keeps doing what he is doing. He is a sound horse with a great motion and he has already raced 5x this year, more than GZ ran in any one given year, and he still has half a year to go. If Bernardini only ran 4x a year he couldn't be great. He still needs to win the Travers, JCGC and BCC to be considered great in my opinion, but unless he gets injured, I don't see anyway that doesn't happen. If things go as expected he will win 7 of 8 races, 4 grade 1's, and have beaten older horses in the BCC. His Beyers are misleading because he doesn't seem to be making any effort. Ghostzapper was always all out, that is why he could only get on the track 4x a year. Now if he doesn't do any of those he isn't great. However, he still might run as a 4yr old.

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by boldruler

I classify Bernardini as great if he keeps doing what he is doing. He is a sound horse with a great motion and he has already raced 5x this year, more than GZ ran in any one given year, and he still has half a year to go. If Bernardini only ran 4x a year he couldn't be great. He still needs to win the Travers, JCGC and BCC to be considered great in my opinion, but unless he gets injured, I don't see anyway that doesn't happen. If things go as expected he will win 7 of 8 races, 4 grade 1's, and have beaten older horses in the BCC. His Beyers are misleading because he doesn't seem to be making any effort. Ghostzapper was always all out, that is why he could only get on the track 4x a year. Now if he doesn't do any of those he isn't great. However, he still might run as a 4yr old.

I have seen Frankel quoted on more than one occasion that just because a horse is doing things easy, it does not mean that the race does not take something out of them...I think he knows a thing or two about training...

Originally Posted by Pointg5

I have seen Frankel quoted on more than one occasion that just because a horse is doing things easy, it does not mean that the race does not take something out of them...I think he knows a thing or two about training...

Of course he does, but what do you expect from a guy whose best horse raced 2.7x a year. Why is it that great horses in the past used to be able to race 10-12x a year and now all of the sudden they can't race more than 2.7x/yr.

[Gauchos0522]

Real Quiet also won G1's at 2,3,4 just remembered he won the Hollywood Futurity...

[sumitas]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Of course he does, but what do you expect from a guy whose best horse raced 2.7x a year. Why is it that great horses in the past used to be able to race 10-12x a year and now all of the sudden they can't race more than 2.7x/yr.

it must have something to do with the training. years ago it would seem the horses would be jogged between starts, then go all out for the race. now the top horses are really tightened before a race. efforts that used to be races are now workouts...that's my guess.

Originally Posted by sumitas

it must have something to do with the training. years ago it would seem the horses would be jogged between starts, then go all out for the race. now the top horses are really tightened before a race. efforts that used to be races are now workouts...that's my guess.

Years ago ragozin did a study and distinctly concluded that horses run their best sheet numbers in "easy efforts" and "public workouts". He said it was a total fallacy that more was in the tank in these efforts and that they would run faster with more pressure. Instead they found the opposite. Its why I love betting back against horses off "easy wins". In this case however, I do not think Bernadini will lose. I do not expect him to leap forward in his fig though. I would expect the same kind of figure in the Travers or a slight regression, albeit good enough to win.

[Unbridled]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Of course he does, but what do you expect from a guy whose best horse raced 2.7x a year. Why is it that great horses in the past used to be able to race 10-12x a year and now all of the sudden they can't race more than 2.7x/yr.

I dont know, maybe b/c breeders started breeding horses for speed, due to big yearling/2yo sales, the disappearance of classic distance races (very few 10F and no 12F dirt races b/c the horses ) which lead to those plodding type horses not becoming stallions and unsound,speed horses becoming stallions and those that had speed being bred to mares with speed b/c speed sells. That and medication allowing unsound horses to run and become stallions. just the tip of the iceberg.