Grass Ranks Thinning Because of Synthetics

[Danzig]

turf racing has always been the red-headed step child of horse racing over here anyway. altho some of us enjoy a good turf race, most think that dirt is the be all, end all....no surprise that an alternative to dirt is thinning the turf ranks more.


but, the big dirt races draw some crossovers every year. had santa anita remained dirt, you may well have had a few turfers make the attempt anyway, just because the race is coming up relatively weak-remember that einstein recently made the not so successful attempt on the main in fla--where there is no synthetic...

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Danzig

turf racing has always been the red-headed step child of horse racing over here anyway. altho some of us enjoy a good turf race, most think that dirt is the be all, end all....no surprise that an alternative to dirt is thinning the turf ranks more.


but, the big dirt races draw some crossovers every year. had santa anita remained dirt, you may well have had a few turfers make the attempt anyway, just because the race is coming up relatively weak-remember that einstein recently made the not so successful attempt on the main in fla--where there is no synthetic...

Right, which is exactly what would have happened to horses like Go Between in the past. On the synthetics though these turf horses are becoming G1 winners on the "dirt" when they wouldn't run a step on real dirt.

[Danzig]

which is why they need to quit pretending we still race on two surfaces.

[pick4]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Right, which is exactly what would have happened to horses like Go Between in the past. On the synthetics though these turf horses are becoming G1 winners on the "dirt" when they wouldn't run a step on real dirt.

I wouldn't use a horse like Go Between to support your opinion. The Sunshine Classic is restricted to only Cal and FLA breds. The pace in the race was 22 3/5, 45, 1:08, 1:33, 1:45 3/5, it fell apart and Go Between won. against a suspect group. He's also a colt who's sire is Point Given and he was pretty good routing on dirt although I agree that the dam side of his pedigree is all turf. Besides Asi Siempre I can't remember another turf horse winning a Grade 1, but she won on Keenelands Polytrack.

I've watched the last three Keeneland meets, Delmar in 07, Hollywood, and Santa Anita and the two synthetic surfaces seem to be completely different. Cushion Track plays more like a real dirt track and Polytrack races look like turf races but in a way they don't. In many Polytrack races they crawl early and the closers still inhale the front runners. In turf races there are many times that horses who set an slow early pace usually hold their postitions from start to finish.

[Linny]

Panty Raid won the G1 Spinster.

Thus far there have not been a ton of Poly G1's but Student Council's Pacific Classic bodes for some strange G1 results, at BTW points out.
The Oak Tree meets major races were pretty formful, but they were pitting most of the same SoCal stakes horses against each other.

[SniperSB23]

In Summation is another that immediately jumps to mind. He was done on the dirt and only useful as a turf sprinter and is suddenly winning G1s on the synthetics. There have been a lot of G2 winners too that will probably win G1s soon enough. Just a week or two back a South American turf filly won a G2. I still don't buy that Nashoba's Key is anymore than a turf horse that is winning G1s on synthetics either.

[pick4]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

In Summation is another that immediately jumps to mind. He was done on the dirt and only useful as a turf sprinter and is suddenly winning G1s on the synthetics. There have been a lot of G2 winners too that will probably win G1s soon enough. Just a week or two back a South American turf filly won a G2. I still don't buy that Nashoba's Key is anymore than a turf horse that is winning G1s on synthetics either.

In Summation is another one. I actually bet him that day in the Bing Crosby and he won by a nose. His form changed when he was moved to Clement's barn and he started sprinting him on grass. That was the reason I bet him that day. Notice how Asi Siempre and In Summation won on Polytrack? I can see the turf horse to Polytrack connection. So far the turf to Cushion hasn't been as strong. As far as I know Cushion is only at Hollywood and Santa Anita but it will be replaced at Santa Anita. The BC is at SA for the next two years and it will be a shame if they install Polytrack.

[pick4]

Originally Posted by Linny

Panty Raid won the G1 Spinster.

Thus far there have not been a ton of Poly G1's but Student Council's Pacific Classic bodes for some strange G1 results, at BTW points out.
The Oak Tree meets major races were pretty formful, but they were pitting most of the same SoCal stakes horses against each other.

That's right I forgot about Panty Raid's win. She ran down Lady Joanne who crushed her in the Alabama. I looked back in my Formy 4 and I have the cards from 10/7 Keeneland. Panty Raid won her debut sprinting on the Spa dirt as a 2 year old. She also beat a weak Grade 2 Black Eyed Susan. Here's an interesting thing to note. Panty Raid was the last horse trained by Todd Pletcher to break his or her maiden in a dirt race at Saratoga. Since her win on August 6, 2006 Pletcher dirt maidens making their first start are 0 for 22. Going back to August 23, 2005 when Carminooch was a debut winner his FTS on Spa dirt are 3 for 49.

[Cannon Shell]

Not totally disagreeing with anything stated before but the Santa Anita Handicap has been in decline since the advent of the Dubai Classic.

Tell me again what top horses Student Council defeated at Del Mar? That was a terrible group for a race of that stature regardless of surface. Didn't he follow it up with another graded win on dirt?

I find it hard to believe that top class turf races, in the East especially, are effected more by synthetic tracks than by poor scheduling by tracks who ignore other tracks stakes schedules and a few high profile trainers that control a great many of the better turf runners wishes to keep them apart.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Tell me again what top horses Student Council defeated at Del Mar? That was a terrible group for a race of that stature regardless of surface. Didn't he follow it up with another graded win on dirt?

He beat a mighty field in the Hawthorne Gold Cup.

I don't totally disagree with you but the field he beat at Del Mar is better than him on the dirt. And, most that are didn't show up at all.

Frankly, there is no greater example of how ridiculous that surface is than Big Booster. He was running for a quarter on the dirt. Granted, it was John Kimmel, but still.

[pick4]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Not totally disagreeing with anything stated before but the Santa Anita Handicap has been in decline since the advent of the Dubai Classic.

Tell me again what top horses Student Council defeated at Del Mar? That was a terrible group for a race of that stature regardless of surface. Didn't he follow it up with another graded win on dirt?

I find it hard to believe that top class turf races, in the East especially, are effected more by synthetic tracks than by poor scheduling by tracks who ignore other tracks stakes schedules and a few high profile trainers that control a great many of the better turf runners wishes to keep them apart.

He beat an over the top Lava Man and held off the late charge of Awesome Gem who finished 3rd in the BC Classic.Student Council won the G2 Hawthorne Gold Cup in 9/07. Awesome Gem and Student Council both ran in the San Antonio at SA on 2/9/08 and AG was 3rd while SC was 5th.The Pacific Classic was run in 2:07 1/5 which is absurd for a Grade 1 race run on a sunny day and dry track. The Blue Grass of 07 was another ridiculously slow final time. Both races were run on Polytrack.

Didn't these "synthetic surfaces" originate in England?