New Hall of Fame

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

Are we including international runners here (and no I don't mean HK in particular but i want to know if horses like Pride and Ouija Board count).....

North American only. For a foreign horse to count, they would have to meet all of the criteria. There aren't that many foreign horses that have won championships here in more than one year. Off the top, I can think of Miesque, Ouija Board, and High Chaparral. Even if I were doing an international one, Hong Kong horses wouldn't be considered yet. It's still not yet completely major league.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

. Even if I were doing an international one, Hong Kong horses wouldn't be considered yet. It's still not yet completely major league.

You are kidding right?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You are kidding right?

I am not. Maybe I'm really lost here but can you tell me some Hong Kong based horses that have made marks on the international level. I don't mean winning big races in Hong Kong but in other parts of the world.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I am not. Maybe I'm really lost here but can you tell me some Hong Kong based horses that have made marks on the international level. I don't mean winning big races in Hong Kong but in other parts of the world.

Off the top of my head Vengeance of Rain in Dubai, Bullish Luck won the G1 Yasuda Kinen in Japan, Cape of Good Hope won the G1 Australia Stakes and the G1 Golden Jubilee at Royal Ascot, and Silent Witness won the G1 Sprinters Stakes in Japan.

That said, I honestly didn't mean to get into the HK thing with you (again).

Was really just wondering if they counted in general.

(Support Hong Kong racing).

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I am not. Maybe I'm really lost here but can you tell me some Hong Kong based horses that have made marks on the international level. I don't mean winning big races in Hong Kong but in other parts of the world.

There are very few bad horses in Hong Kong as they have standards that a horse must meet before they are allowed to be imported there. Since every horse is imported they clearly have the best overall horse population. Horses at the top of HK racing have won all kinds of International races as pointed out by MMSC. They dont compete in the BC because they have there own version which is much more important to them. They also dont have any breeding business so they have little incentive to leave since the run for huge purses.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There are very few bad horses in Hong Kong as they have standards that a horse must meet before they are allowed to be imported there. Since every horse is imported they clearly have the best overall horse population. Horses at the top of HK racing have won all kinds of International races as pointed out by MMSC. They dont compete in the BC because they have there own version which is much more important to them. They also dont have any breeding business so they have little incentive to leave since the run for huge purses.

I don't know how true this statement is. Looking at her list:

Vengeance of Rain won the Dubai Sheema.
Bullish Luck won the Yasuda Kinen in Japan.
Cape of Good Hope won the Golden Jubilee in England and a race in Australia.
Silent Witness won the Sprinters Stakes in Japan.

I'd even add Fairy King Prawn who won the Yasuda Kinen also. That's five horses who have won six internationl grade one races and of the six, three were in Japan, one in Australia, and one in Dubai. To most of the world, the traditional top racing is held in the United States, England, Ireland and France. The Hong Kong horses have only won a single grade one race in those countries that I have been able to find so far.

I'm not trying to knock Hong Kong racing at all. Just as I don't knock Japanese racing. But it's a process that takes a while to truly get to the top level of international racing and they just aren't there yet. That's not to say they can't get there, as Japan is definitely showing. But they aren't there yet.

[my miss storm cat]

To be fair, that list was only off the top of my head and one was at Royal Ascot.

I understand your point though.....

Maybe after they come for the BC Mile and Sprint you'll begin to think a little differently (?).

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

To be fair, that list was only off the top of my head and one was at Royal Ascot.

I understand your point though.....

Maybe after they come for the BC Mile and Sprint you'll begin to think a little differently (?).

Yes, Cape of Good Hope won at Royal Ascot. The racing in the United States wasn't up to the level of the racing in Europe when we first started. It's a process. It takes time.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't know how true this statement is. Looking at her list:

Vengeance of Rain won the Dubai Sheema.
Bullish Luck won the Yasuda Kinen in Japan.
Cape of Good Hope won the Golden Jubilee in England and a race in Australia.
Silent Witness won the Sprinters Stakes in Japan.

I'd even add Fairy King Prawn who won the Yasuda Kinen also. That's five horses who have won six internationl grade one races and of the six, three were in Japan, one in Australia, and one in Dubai. To most of the world, the traditional top racing is held in the United States, England, Ireland and France. The Hong Kong horses have only won a single grade one race in those countries that I have been able to find so far.

I'm not trying to knock Hong Kong racing at all. Just as I don't knock Japanese racing. But it's a process that takes a while to truly get to the top level of international racing and they just aren't there yet. That's not to say they can't get there, as Japan is definitely showing. But they aren't there yet.

Your interpretation of top class racing may need to change a bit. When is the last time a horse from the US won a race in Europe or Australia or HK or even Japan? Does that mean our races are no good too? When was the last really good horse from France came and win anything in the US? Considering the fact that they have won that many international races when the pool of horses in HK is around 500 i would say they are pretty good. When you add in the HK International race results, the numbers are even better.

[Scav]

HK owners have no reason to leave other then maybe ego or pride, otherwise, they are racing for the top squilla

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Your interpretation of top class racing may need to change a bit. When is the last time a horse from the US won a race in Europe or Australia or HK or even Japan? Does that mean our races are no good too? When was the last really good horse from France came and win anything in the US? Considering the fact that they have won that many international races when the pool of horses in HK is around 500 i would say they are pretty good. When you add in the HK International race results, the numbers are even better.

We specialize in dirt racing here which they don't run in the rest of the world, save for Dubai, where we have a pretty dominant record in the Dubai World Cup and do pretty well in the sprint race too. As far as grass racing, no, our horses for the most part don't compare with the best in the world. Just like HK, we get a good one here and there that is on par with the best but for the most part, we lag behind the top class international horses.

In regards to the question about a really good horse coming from France to win here, I don't break the European horses down by country. That would be like breaking down the American horses by state. The proximity of those countries to one another makes them completely interchangeable.

I believe that Hong Kong has some good horses. They have a top class racing structure and they are truly headed in the right direction towards becoming a world racing power. I don't think it's too inconcievable to see the day when Japan and Hong Kong are considered the top racing centers in the world. But as yet, they have very few horses that have left the country and made an international impact. It's only been a handful of horses in a handful of races and most of those were in places similar to HK in Japan and Australia.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

North American only. For a foreign horse to count, they would have to meet all of the criteria. There aren't that many foreign horses that have won championships here in more than one year. Off the top, I can think of Miesque, Ouija Board, and High Chaparral. Even if I were doing an international one, Hong Kong horses wouldn't be considered yet. It's still not yet completely major league.

I couldn't disagree more with this statement, Hong Kong horses wouldn't be considered yet. It's still not yet completely major league
Your determining factor or precursor for this statement is too narrow(black or white), they may simply be unineterested in shipping to Europe or NA as logistically it wouldn't make sense as purses over there are large. Look they have big name jockies, high quality racing, great facilities, overflowing crowds, it is big league. The few times they did ship Vengence of Rain did win the Sheema Classic in 07. I think Bullish Luck a turf horse finished a respectable 3rd in the Dubai World Cup.

Japan didn't start shipping horses until recently, but I would venture to guess that your opinion of them would have been simular until they showed up in America, the fact is races in Australia, Japan, and Hong Kong are of the highest level. Just because they haven't proven it here year in year out does not mean their racing is any less quality.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by CSC

I couldn't disagree more with this statement, Hong Kong horses wouldn't be considered yet. It's still not yet completely major league
Your determining factor or precursor for this statement is too narrow(black or white), they may simply be unineterested in shipping to Europe or NA as logistically it wouldn't make sense as purses over there are large. Look they have big name jockies, high quality racing, great facilities, overflowing crowds, it is big league. The few times they did ship Vengence of Rain did win the Sheema Classic in 07. I think Bullish Luck a turf horse finished a respectable 3rd in the Dubai World Cup.

Japan didn't start shipping horses until recently, but I would venture to guess that your opinion of them would have been simular until they showed up in America, the fact is races in Australia, Japan, and Hong Kong are of the highest level. Just because they haven't proven it here year in year out does not mean their racing is any less quality.

Horses can't just stay in their area and compete and then be put on a world level. It's almost the same thing here in the U.S. Horses that compete in California only aren't given the same respect as horses that travel and compete against the best in the nation. The purses are great here in Cal, the jockey colony is nice, the races are big races. But to a lot of the rest of the country, the horses are still seen as "nice horse in California but what will happen when they cross the Mississippi?" Same thing with the Hong Kong horses. I'm not saying at all that they are bad horses or that the racing is bad. But until they start proving on a consistent basis that they can leave their friendly confines and beat the best in a the world on a regular basis, I still think of them as provincial champions. The very best ones, I know that they can compete on a world level. But there just aren't that many of them yet. It also seems to me that when they have their few races that attract the best international horses, the international horses come in and win more than the local ones. Sort of like how the Europeans come here and consistently kick our butts in the BC grass races. Sure, we sprinkle in some wins here and there but I don't think anyone would argue that when it comes to grass racing, we lag behind them. Same concept with regards to HK horses on the world stage.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Horses can't just stay in their area and compete and then be put on a world level. It's almost the same thing here in the U.S. Horses that compete in California only aren't given the same respect as horses that travel and compete against the best in the nation. The purses are great here in Cal, the jockey colony is nice, the races are big races. But to a lot of the rest of the country, the horses are still seen as "nice horse in California but what will happen when they cross the Mississippi?" Same thing with the Hong Kong horses. I'm not saying at all that they are bad horses or that the racing is bad. But until they start proving on a consistent basis that they can leave their friendly confines and beat the best in a the world on a regular basis, I still think of them as provincial champions. The very best ones, I know that they can compete on a world level. But there just aren't that many of them yet. It also seems to me that when they have their few races that attract the best international horses, the international horses come in and win more than the local ones. Sort of like how the Europeans come here and consistently kick our butts in the BC grass races. Sure, we sprinkle in some wins here and there but I don't think anyone would argue that when it comes to grass racing, we lag behind them. Same concept with regards to HK horses on the world stage.

Do you understand that there are less horses in HK than in Pletcher and Assmussens barns? Why would they leave? So that King Glorious can say they are legit? It is like saying that the Spurs are not legit because they only won the NBA title and didnt have to face the Euro league teams because the US isnt tops in basketball anymore since we regularly lose international tourneys. They have been very sucessful when they do venture elsewhere and regualrly win the majority of the International races in December. Your argument is basically just "I dont never see them run so they must not be any good". Many of the Euros that come here and kick our butt on the turf go there and get their butt kicked. Doesnt that count? Or should American horses not get credit for winning BC races because they are held here?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Do you understand that there are less horses in HK than in Pletcher and Assmussens barns? Why would they leave? So that King Glorious can say they are legit? It is like saying that the Spurs are not legit because they only won the NBA title and didnt have to face the Euro league teams because the US isnt tops in basketball anymore since we regularly lose international tourneys. They have been very sucessful when they do venture elsewhere and regualrly win the majority of the International races in December. Your argument is basically just "I dont never see them run so they must not be any good". Many of the Euros that come here and kick our butt on the turf go there and get their butt kicked. Doesnt that count? Or should American horses not get credit for winning BC races because they are held here?

If the question is what would make them legit to me, then yes, I want to see more on the international stage and not only on races in Hong Kong against horses that come to face them. You say they have been "very successful" when they do venture out and I just don't see that as the case. I see only a handful of wins and the majority of those came in Japan. I don't think it's true that they win the majority of the international races in December either. Give me facts and not opinions.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

If the question is what would make them legit to me, then yes, I want to see more on the international stage and not only on races in Hong Kong against horses that come to face them. You say they have been "very successful" when they do venture out and I just don't see that as the case. I see only a handful of wins and the majority of those came in Japan. I don't think it's true that they win the majority of the international races in December either. Give me facts and not opinions.

when you started this thread, you asked for opinions.

you brought up cali horses above, what about native diver?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Danzig

when you started this thread, you asked for opinions.

you brought up cali horses above, what about native diver?

I asked for people to give them opinions on what their criteria would be to make the hall of fame.

What about Native Diver? I don't understand the question. If you are asking me was he a good horse, of course. If you are asking me would he make my hall of fame, I'd have to look and see if he meets my criteria.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

If the question is what would make them legit to me, then yes, I want to see more on the international stage and not only on races in Hong Kong against horses that come to face them. You say they have been "very successful" when they do venture out and I just don't see that as the case. I see only a handful of wins and the majority of those came in Japan. I don't think it's true that they win the majority of the international races in December either. Give me facts and not opinions.

It seems as though you are the one that is basing everything on opinion. You only see a handful of wins because they only make a handful of starts. A big part of having an owners license in HK is that you are part of an exclusive club that supports HK racing, not international racing. You need to get permission from the HKJC just to leave the country to race abroad. You may not like the exclusitivity but that doesn't make the top horses there any less talented. The few times that they have ventured, they have been very sucessful. They have defeated runners from supposedly superior counties in their own races. Believing that the racing there is not on par with other top class racing throughout the world is either arrogance or foolishness.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

It seems as though you are the one that is basing everything on opinion. You only see a handful of wins because they only make a handful of starts. A big part of having an owners license in HK is that you are part of an exclusive club that supports HK racing, not international racing. You need to get permission from the HKJC just to leave the country to race abroad. You may not like the exclusitivity but that doesn't make the top horses there any less talented. The few times that they have ventured, they have been very sucessful. They have defeated runners from supposedly superior counties in their own races. Believing that the racing there is not on par with other top class racing throughout the world is either arrogance or foolishness.

I've clearly said that I know that their top horses can compete with the best in the world. In 2006, the best horse from Uraguay was the best horse in the world. Does that mean that Uraguayan racing is on par with the best in the world? Of course not. I saw Deep Impact go over and run a strong race in the Arc. Heart's Cry ran a big one in the King George. Does that mean that Japanese racing as a whole is on par with European? IMO, no. English Channel destroyed the Turf this year. Would I expect that Americans now should raid the Arc because we are as good as they are? No. It takes more than a handful of horses over a period of years to be on par with countries that produce handfuls year after year. The racing PROGRAM there is top class. The talent levels of their horses, top to bottom, is not there yet with the best in the world, IMO. I don't think that's arrogance because I'm not European. Maybe it is foolishness though.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Horses can't just stay in their area and compete and then be put on a world level. It's almost the same thing here in the U.S. Horses that compete in California only aren't given the same respect as horses that travel and compete against the best in the nation. The purses are great here in Cal, the jockey colony is nice, the races are big races. But to a lot of the rest of the country, the horses are still seen as "nice horse in California but what will happen when they cross the Mississippi?" Same thing with the Hong Kong horses. I'm not saying at all that they are bad horses or that the racing is bad. But until they start proving on a consistent basis that they can leave their friendly confines and beat the best in a the world on a regular basis, I still think of them as provincial champions. The very best ones, I know that they can compete on a world level. But there just aren't that many of them yet. It also seems to me that when they have their few races that attract the best international horses, the international horses come in and win more than the local ones. Sort of like how the Europeans come here and consistently kick our butts in the BC grass races. Sure, we sprinkle in some wins here and there but I don't think anyone would argue that when it comes to grass racing, we lag behind them. Same concept with regards to HK horses on the world stage.

You have to ask yourself why would Kong Kong based horses travel to the U.S when racing over there is lucrutive and logistically it would be a nightmare. To prove a point? They did ship to Dubai last year as I already noted, and did very well.