Kidd to Mavs

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

They're going to miss Stackhouse in the playoffs. Dirk is not exactly Mr. Clutch in crunch time.

Dirk has troubles with long, athletic guys bothering him on the perimeter and against Golden State, he certainly had his struggles. But I would like to argue that Dirk doesn't come through in the clutch. Look back to that series in 2006 against the Spurs. Dirk went for 27.1 points and 13.3 boards in that seven game series, including 37 and 15 in the final game, at San Antonio. In the next series, against Phoenix, he went for 28.0 and 13.2 in a six game series, including a 50 point night in game five after the Suns had tied the series. Those numbers went down to 22.8 and 10.8 in the championship series against Miami and he had 29 and 15 in the final game. How much more is one guy supposed to do? It just so happened that his team was beaten by a better player in Wade.

Dirk has career averages of 22.3 points and 8.6 rebounds per game, numbers that go up to 25.2 and 11.1 in the playoffs. That's not what a choker does. How many superstars have led their teams to titles in the last 25 years?

Moses Malone
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Isaiah Thomas
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Dwayne Wade

That means that a whole lot of other superstars have lost in the clutch. Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, and Patrick Ewing were all superstars but they lost when they went up against a better player in Jordan. That's not a disgrace. Dirk's struggles last year reminded me of Magic back in 1981 against the Rockets when the 54-win Lakers were upset in the first round by the 40-win Rockets.

Compare Dirk's career playoff numbers to the greats in the history of the game and I think that you would be surprised at how he rates.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Dirk has troubles with long, athletic guys bothering him on the perimeter and against Golden State, he certainly had his struggles. But I would like to argue that Dirk doesn't come through in the clutch. Look back to that series in 2006 against the Spurs. Dirk went for 27.1 points and 13.3 boards in that seven game series, including 37 and 15 in the final game, at San Antonio. In the next series, against Phoenix, he went for 28.0 and 13.2 in a six game series, including a 50 point night in game five after the Suns had tied the series. Those numbers went down to 22.8 and 10.8 in the championship series against Miami and he had 29 and 15 in the final game. How much more is one guy supposed to do? It just so happened that his team was beaten by a better player in Wade.

Dirk has career averages of 22.3 points and 8.6 rebounds per game, numbers that go up to 25.2 and 11.1 in the playoffs. That's not what a choker does. How many superstars have led their teams to titles in the last 25 years?

Moses Malone
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Isaiah Thomas
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Dwayne Wade

That means that a whole lot of other superstars have lost in the clutch. Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, and Patrick Ewing were all superstars but they lost when they went up against a better player in Jordan. That's not a disgrace. Dirk's struggles last year reminded me of Magic back in 1981 against the Rockets when the 54-win Lakers were upset in the first round by the 40-win Rockets.

Compare Dirk's career playoff numbers to the greats in the history of the game and I think that you would be surprised at how he rates.

Yeah the thing is there's no Jordan now. All three of the guys you mentioned would've had a ring if they played in this era.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Yeah the thing is there's no Jordan now. All three of the guys you mentioned would've had a ring if they played in this era.

The point was that usually, the best will beat the second best. Tim Duncan is arguably the best power forward in the history of the game and will likely be ranked as a top 20 player of all time if not top 10. To come up short against a team led by him is not a disgrace. Dirk's prime years have come during the prime years of Duncan's. LeBron is arguably the best in the game now and he came up short to Duncan's team too. Wade had one of the greatest series' ever in the league. He's a future hall of fame player. To lose to another great player (teamed with a motivated Shaq) doesn't mean he choked.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

The point was that usually, the best will beat the second best. Tim Duncan is arguably the best power forward in the history of the game and will likely be ranked as a top 20 player of all time if not top 10. To come up short against a team led by him is not a disgrace. Dirk's prime years have come during the prime years of Duncan's. LeBron is arguably the best in the game now and he came up short to Duncan's team too. Wade had one of the greatest series' ever in the league. He's a future hall of fame player. To lose to another great player (teamed with a motivated Shaq) doesn't mean he choked.

*sigh*

Do you think Nowitski is better than Ewing, Barkley or Malone?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

*sigh*

Do you think Nowitski is better than Ewing, Barkley or Malone?

Ewing, yes. Barkley and Malone, no.

I think that Ewing was a better regular season player. Offensively, they were pretty even. Ewing was a dominant defender though and that's where he gets the edge. But check out the playoff numbers. Ewing's number's don't improve. Dirk's do. I looked at the career numbers of both players. To be fair, I counted Ewing's numbers only up to the age of 34 and I didn't count Dirk's rookie season, when he only played 47 games and 20 minutes per game.

Ewing Regular Season/Playoffs
23.6 points, 10.4 boards, 2.1 assists, 2.76 blocks, 3.3 turnovers
22.5...........10.9............2.4...........2.51. ...........2.8

Nowitzki Regular Season/Playoffs
23.1 points, 8.9 boards, 2.8 assists, 1.08 blocks, 1.9 turnovers
25.2...........11.1..........2.4............1.05.. .........2.2

Ewing was great in college.
I just dont think he was that
great as a pro.

Ewing is nowhere near Malone, Hakeem,
etc... David Robinson was a heck of
a lot better than Ewing but could not win
squat until Duncan came. I dont know how
people can ever forget Moses Malone. He was
a beast. Seems to be left out of a lot of
conversations when discussing top big men.

I think Dirk will be helped out tremendously with
the addition of Kidd. Kidd will help them get past
teams like Phoenix and Golden State. As a Spurs
fan I like the trade because the only guy that
could cover Parker on Dallas might be gone.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Ewing was great in college.
I just dont think he was that
great as a pro.

Ewing is nowhere near Malone, Hakeem,
etc... David Robinson was a heck of
a lot better than Ewing but could not win
squat until Duncan came. I dont know how
people can ever forget Moses Malone. He was
a beast. Seems to be left out of a lot of
conversations when discussing top big men.

I think Dirk will be helped out tremendously with
the addition of Kidd. Kidd will help them get past
teams like Phoenix and Golden State. As a Spurs
fan I like the trade because the only guy that
could cover Parker on Dallas might be gone.

I think you might have missed Ewings selection to the 50 greatest players of the NBA. He was nowhere near Malone, Hakeem, Robinson? Are you serious?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Certainly Barkley and Malone's teams would have won in a non-Jordan era. Funny thing about Ewing was that his team had a shot against a non-Jordan team in The Finals.

Ewing played very well in that championship against Olajuwon.

Watching the Knicks in the mid-90s was great, great sports theatre in New York.

Barkley and Malone both were playing in the years that Jordan sat out and Ewing got to the finals. They just lost to a better player in Olajuwon. What is interesting is that the Rockets beat Malone's Jazz and Barkley's Suns in BOTH title years.