Mel Gibson's Anti-Semetic Tirade

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

If you study the pagan religions, you might change your mind. There are many earth-bound religions that don't teach superiority or an "inside track" to the Almighty! One thing for sure, Wicca never started any wars!

Yeah, but Wicca's been around barely 100 years; give it time.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Yeah, but Wicca's been around barely 100 years; give it time.

Actually...Wicca or Witchcraft is possibly the oldest of the pagan religions, recent archaeological discoveries indicate that it may have been practiced 30,000 years ago which pre-dates Christianity by 28,000 years!

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Actually...Wicca or Witchcraft is possibly the oldest of the pagan religions, recent archaeological discoveries indicate that it may have been practiced 30,000 years ago which pre-dates Christianity by 28,000 years!

Somer, I respectfully disagree. I think Wicca as it's practiced today arose out of the fascination with spiritualism in the late 19th century-- making a connection between it and the ancient pagan religions is a bit of a stretch that I think some Wiccans like to do in order to give themselves a feeling of superiority over more mainstream religions ("But we're older!").

Which is not to detract from its legitimacy as a genuine faith. Christianity was once only 100 years old, too. Likewise Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Hindu-- they all started somewhere.

And I've been a practicing Wiccan for 14 years. There, I'm out of the broom closet. So much for my political career.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Somer, I respectfully disagree. I think Wicca as it's practiced today arose out of the fascination with spiritualism in the late 19th century-- making a connection between it and the ancient pagan religions is a bit of a stretch that I think some Wiccans like to do in order to give themselves a feeling of superiority over more mainstream religions ("But we're older!").

Which is not to detract from its legitimacy as a genuine faith. Christianity was once only 100 years old, too. Likewise Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Hindu-- they all started somewhere.

And I've been a practicing Wiccan for 14 years. There, I'm out of the broom closet. So much for my political career.

Well, I know some Wiccans believe as you do, others prefer to trace their beliefs further back. I use the terms "witch" and "wiccan" interchangably while some folks would take offense at being referred to as one or the other. Gardnerian Wiccans would rightly trace their traditions back only a bit over 60 years while some practicing witch covens relate to the Craft which predates Christianity...a matter of personal choice. I guess some enjoy being part of something "ancient", myself I never really gave that aspect much thought. I would argue however that witchcraft has to predate the 12th century as that marked the beginnings of the Burning Times!

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Well, I know some Wiccans believe as you do, others prefer to trace their beliefs further back. I use the terms "witch" and "wiccan" interchangably while some folks would take offense at being referred to as one or the other. Gardnerian Wiccans would rightly trace their traditions back only a bit over 60 years while some practicing witch covens relate to the Craft which predates Christianity...a matter of personal choice. I guess some enjoy being part of something "ancient", myself I never really gave that aspect much thought. I would argue however that witchcraft has to predate the 12th century as that marked the beginnings of the Burning Times!

And see, I see the "Burning Times" as witches' attempts to give themselves their own Holocaust. Most of the victims of the assorted Witch Trials weren't "witches" in any relgious sense of the word; they were Christians who were unfortunate enough to be A)women with property B)women or men who annoyed someone in power C)irritating neighbors or D)any or all of the above. The numbers of those who died have been grossly inflated, and again, most of them weren't practicing witchcraft as a religion- they were using folk remedies, etc. independent of a faith. Heck, my great-aunt knew more folk magic than anyone I knew and she was a devout Christian. Didn't stop her from telling you to rub a potato on a wart on Good Friday and then bury it and as the potato rotted so would the wart (my dad STILL yammers about how that cured his wart). But I grew up in Central PA where folk magic is rife and is mostly practiced by Christians.

I'm not disputing people were burned or hanged or pressed to death as witches, but I don't think a single one of the witches practicing today is practicing anything like what was practiced in pre-Christian times or Dark Ages times. Modern witchcraft seems to me to be a blend of Christianity, Eastern thought, spiritualism and New Age thinking, with a focus on the feminine in Divinity. Which is what attracted me-- I want God to have my face, too, not just my father's and brother's and husband's.

But to each his and her own-- I figure the roots of any religion are not nearly as important as what one does with one's faith in the here and now anyway.

Which is not to say I didn't go through my phase of "It's an ancient faith" and "Burning times! Never again!" But, perhaps unfortunately, I kept reading and researching and eventually came to the belief that "witches" in history and "witches" in religion are two very different things and that's fine. The research also gave me the knowledge that Christmas trees are in fact ancient pagan symbols (and cultural ones), and that most Christian holidays are based around ancient pagan holidays (and many churches built on old pagan sites). Which is why the annual stuff in the media about a "war on Christmas" always amuses me.

AND-- all that said, I'm always astonished and a bit humbled when I come across a man who looks into the Craft, as it were. The great Western Faiths very clearly state man is primary and woman secondary, and for a man to look at a faith that says they're both equal (though different) is a man willing to give up some status. And that's an extraordinary thing, Somer, and I tip my hat to you-- I find it a very admirable thing.

[GenuineRisk]

My God I'm long-winded. My apologies. I should never have learned to touch-type.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

And see, I see the "Burning Times" as witches' attempts to give themselves their own Holocaust. Most of the victims of the assorted Witch Trials weren't "witches" in any relgious sense of the word; they were Christians who were unfortunate enough to be A)women with property B)women or men who annoyed someone in power C)irritating neighbors or D)any or all of the above. The numbers of those who died have been grossly inflated, and again, most of them weren't practicing witchcraft as a religion- they were using folk remedies, etc. independent of a faith. Heck, my great-aunt knew more folk magic than anyone I knew and she was a devout Christian. Didn't stop her from telling you to rub a potato on a wart on Good Friday and then bury it and as the potato rotted so would the wart (my dad STILL yammers about how that cured his wart). But I grew up in Central PA where folk magic is rife and is mostly practiced by Christians.

I'm not disputing people were burned or hanged or pressed to death as witches, but I don't think a single one of the witches practicing today is practicing anything like what was practiced in pre-Christian times or Dark Ages times. Modern witchcraft seems to me to be a blend of Christianity, Eastern thought, spiritualism and New Age thinking, with a focus on the feminine in Divinity. Which is what attracted me-- I want God to have my face, too, not just my father's and brother's and husband's.

But to each his and her own-- I figure the roots of any religion are not nearly as important as what one does with one's faith in the here and now anyway.

Which is not to say I didn't go through my phase of "It's an ancient faith" and "Burning times! Never again!" But, perhaps unfortunately, I kept reading and researching and eventually came to the belief that "witches" in history and "witches" in religion are two very different things and that's fine. The research also gave me the knowledge that Christmas trees are in fact ancient pagan symbols (and cultural ones), and that most Christian holidays are based around ancient pagan holidays (and many churches built on old pagan sites). Which is why the annual stuff in the media about a "war on Christmas" always amuses me.

AND-- all that said, I'm always astonished and a bit humbled when I come across a man who looks into the Craft, as it were. The great Western Faiths very clearly state man is primary and woman secondary, and for a man to look at a faith that says they're both equal (though different) is a man willing to give up some status. And that's an extraordinary thing, Somer, and I tip my hat to you-- I find it a very admirable thing.

Well, regarding the Burning Times, I will agree that most of the innocent victims of what amounted to church sponsored genocide were not practicing witches rather simply folks against whom someone held a grudge. Having said that, I would still contend that the purpose behind the Inquisition and other such activities was to wipe out witchcraft and other pagan religions. King James' translation of the old Hebrew word "chasaph" to the English "witch" rather than the correct translation of "poisoner", the sudden appearance of horns on the Judeo-Christian image of Satan which made it possible to claim that witches worshiped the devil....many examples.
The concept of sexual equality meets a lot of resistance in many cultures...I've never understood the fear attached to accepting the obvious. Unfortunately, in today's world, the concept of a female deity co-existing equally with a male one seems to be a huge step for many, perhaps one day......

I guess the big black pot jokes are out also.


I find it interesting that religions today still look at higher being(s) as having a sex. I mean there are some protozoans that have 13 sexes with very strict rules about sexual reproduction, quite confusing. And with as many organisms that reproduce asexually... I guess I thought stuff would be beyond that.

My bad. Using other living things in some sort of unity with humans is not a popular idea. Why cant people fit this in somehow. See this is what gets the atheists going... Man created God in his own image stuff.

[Danzig]

oh, and regarding the thread title...mel gibson is just another hollywood actor/nut. it just took longer for him to show it than some.

[Rupert Pupkin]

I am glad to see that Gibson wasted no time in taking full repsonsibilty for his behavior. He has fully apologized and did not make any excuses.

Here is an excerpt of his apology: " I acted like a person completely out of control when I was arrested. I disgraced myself and my family with my behavior and for that I am truly sorry. I have battled with the disease of alcoholism for all of my adult life and profoundly regret my horrific relapse." With regard to his anti-Jewish comments, Gibson said, "I said things that I do not believe to be true and which are despicable." He also apologized for "my belligerent behavior" and the way he treated the police officers.

I respect Mel for apologizing and taking full responsibility for his bevavior.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I am glad to see that Gibson wasted no time in taking full repsonsibilty for his behavior. He has fully apologized and did not make any excuses.

Here is an excerpt of his apology: " I acted like a person completely out of control when I was arrested. I disgraced myself and my family with my behavior and for that I am truly sorry. I have battled with the disease of alcoholism for all of my adult life and profoundly regret my horrific relapse." With regard to his anti-Jewish comments, Gibson said, "I said things that I do not believe to be true and which are despicable." He also apologized for "my belligerent behavior" and the way he treated the police officers.

I respect Mel for apologizing and taking full responsibility for his bevavior.

I give him props for apologizing, too. When will celebrities and politicians learn the fastest way to make something go away is to say "I'm sorry?" So good for him for stepping up and doing it.

(But am I still allowed to think he's a nutcase?)

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

I give him props for apologizing, too. When will celebrities and politicians learn the fastest way to make something go away is to say "I'm sorry?" So good for him for stepping up and doing it.

(But am I still allowed to think he's a nutcase?)

I give him credit for that too. That is refreshing. He is still a wacko though. I have to admit I will go see Apocolypto though.