Chris Antley

[disappearingdan_akaplaya]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I know exactly what you were doing....pretending you knew something that you not only didn't know but was patently false.

I get it perfectly....you're a desperate lying wannabee.

wannabee what? im a fan of the game and a horse owner. believe me i got much better things to do especially these days especially taking care of my father with his illness then to come on here just make something like that up, anybody who has known me for over 5+ years since the espn board will tell you that since you apparently dont know me. i see all you can do is resort to namecalling since you havent a clue as to what youre talking about, i think ill take the word of somebody who was actually ON THE HORSES BACK over yours anyday. also if you go back and watch some of his races maybe youll see what im talking about. again you couldnt answer my question which tells me im wasting my time, and again youre just so blind and think im bashing zito when im not. sometimes even when a horse is properly maintained and recieves terrific care they still can come up very sore and have serious issues, especially ones who run as hard as DC did. you say you talk to NZ and he is your friend and are around his barn, well you obviously arent paying attention and arent learning anything from him

[disappearingdan_akaplaya]

luka$$ coming out after that HBO special was luka$$ just being himself and wanting in the spotlight as he always does! he says he doesnt feel sorry for anyone driving 2 mercedes, shane sellers in particular. hmmmmmmm didnt know there was a penalty for success all of a sudden. pretty clear as day luka$$ doesnt give a sh1t about any except himself and his own ego. you cant deny what hes accomplished in the past but ironically since antleys passing and those comments hes made he hasnt performed like a HOF trainer. hes lost owners, very prominent ones(think that happened for no reason at all?) and hasnt had anywhere near a HOF trainers %. when it comes to opinions on jockeys i think ill disregard luka$$', after all this was a guy who had someone named ct lang(who?, exactly) ridin the barn for him at arlington several years ago who went 0 for 70 somethin for the meet

[Riot]

The problem with the weights is only a problem because the jockeys say it is.
Like Da Hoss said, where do you draw the line? If you are too big and can't make weight naturally then it is YOUR fault if you resort to flipping, not horse racings.

The jockeys say it is a problem, because they are the ones suffering the permanent adverse health consequences with heart and kidney damage, esophageal erosions, etc. in exchange for a career of any length. They have the same health problems anorexic and bulemic young women do.

It's easy for an 18-year-old to make weight, but a thin-framed adult guy 5' 5" should weigh in at least 125 (still under ideal healthy body condition), but with the muscling needed to ride a horse, the bone-mass needed to support that muscle 135-140 is fair and still quite thin. We ask them to be, what, 110-118 or 120?

I haven't heard of any jockey shortages. As long as countries in South American continue to be 2nd and 3rd world (thus reliable producers of shorter, lighter-framed people due to decades of impoverished health and nutritional conditions), we will be able to get short, thin, lightweight kids trained ride racehorses.

In the end the horses will pay the price.

What top weights do you think fair (safe) for 2-year-olds, 3-year-olds? The current weight allowances?

In your experience is it true, or just impression from legend, that average weights horses in the handicap division are asked to carry have lowered over the last 50 years?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

The jockeys say it is a problem, because they are the ones suffering the permanent adverse health consequences with heart and kidney damage, esophageal erosions, etc. in exchange for a career of any length. They have the same health problems anorexic and bulemic young women do.

If you are too big and need to flip to make weight than a career change is needed. It is a shame that guys devote themselves to this career at a young age and grow out of it but that is not the fault of the horse racing industry. It is about personal choices. If you choose to do unhealthy things to yourself in order to keep riding then a look in the mirror is needed. The recent HBO show highlighted the death of Chris Herrell. Herrell died from a heart attack from years of flipping. He also was naturally a 150 lbs guy. Do you think raising the weight scale 2 pounds would have done anything for him?

The weight scale has been raised especially at the bottom of the scale. There is not a shortage of jockeys. No one forces anyone to be a jockey. The fact that people have gotten bigger over the years is a moot point.

The fact is that raising the scale a few pounds will not do a thing except make it easier for heavier people to try to ride. Bulemia is a disease and very few jockeys will just stop if the scale was raised a few pounds. The same problems will exist, nothing will change.

[Benny Leger]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If you are too big and need to flip to make weight than a career change is needed. It is a shame that guys devote themselves to this career at a young age and grow out of it but that is not the fault of the horse racing industry. It is about personal choices. If you choose to do unhealthy things to yourself in order to keep riding then a look in the mirror is needed. The recent HBO show highlighted the death of Chris Herrell. Herrell died from a heart attack from years of flipping. He also was naturally a 150 lbs guy. Do you think raising the weight scale 2 pounds would have done anything for him?

The weight scale has been raised especially at the bottom of the scale. There is not a shortage of jockeys. No one forces anyone to be a jockey. The fact that people have gotten bigger over the years is a moot point.

The fact is that raising the scale a few pounds will not do a thing except make it easier for heavier people to try to ride. Bulemia is a disease and very few jockeys will just stop if the scale was raised a few pounds. The same problems will exist, nothing will change.

When I read the details of the things that Antley did on a daily basis to make weight later in his career, it was quite painful to me. I wish he could have realized it was over for him as a jockey, but that's easy for me to say. It's the only thing he ever wanted to do from the time he was 12 yrs. old. He was quite adept at playing the stock market and could still be around to enjoy his wife and child, if only he could have walked away. I think he was special on a horses back, even though he carried many demons of his own. One of Antleys Doctors said "trainers love him for his ride, but hate his offtrack troubles." Sounds like a horrible spot for a person to be in.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

What top weights do you think fair (safe) for 2-year-olds, 3-year-olds? The current weight allowances?

In your experience is it true, or just impression from legend, that average weights horses in the handicap division are asked to carry have lowered over the last 50 years?

There is no handicap division anymore.

[fpsoxfan]

Lukas is quite outspoken on several issues and he is mostly likely the Bobby Knight of horse racing, but I certainly don't see that as a bad thing. Hoss brings up a point that many people seem to forget, many of the great owners he's saddled for have passed away. Sure is he winning at a rate that he once did?
The answer is no. But would I have him train a horse that I owned?
No question about it.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

You keep ignoring a pretty big part of this. Say the weights are raised to 120-130. What do you propose we tell the people that are normally 140-150 pounds that are now getting in the sweat boxes and flipping? They'll be trying to make the weight and eventually I'm sure we'll be hearing again about how unfair the weights are. At what weight will it end? If you have to resort to practices that are life threatening to you, maybe you're too big to be a jock.

Right now a good number of our jockeys have brittle, thin bones (chronic malnutrition), esophageal varicies or bleeding from chronic heaving, permanent heart and kidney damage and electrolyte imbalances (especially calcium, potassium) from extreme dieting and the chronic abuse of diuretics and purgatives, etc.

Maybe only a very few of them should be riding in the afternoons right now anyway? The naturally smaller young apprentices and young journeymen that stay very small - they can ride for a few years, and as they enter their mid-twenties and start accumulating too much weight they should quit?

As you move from the current extreme edge of the bell curve (where only 1-2% of the population is a certain size, and everyone but young apprentices has to abuse their bodies to make weight) towards the middle a few pounds, you'll have a greater population able to hold a certain weight - from above and below that point on the bell curve - without having to physically abusing themselves by bulemia, cocaine, sweatboxes, lasix and other diuretic and purgative abuse, etc.

The population in the US has been getting taller over the past century, so the available population for that extreme side of the bell curve has been getting smaller and smaller. Yet we still want people that fit into that size limitation from a century ago (I think NY has raised their weights a few years back) and now we can rarely find people of that small size in the US, we have to get them from countries that are, health and nutrition-wise, still a century behind us.

"Where will it end" is the most important question, because over the same time period horses have been getting faster, meaning lighter in bone, etc - how much weight can the horses of today be asked to safely carry? Not much more than they are now, I think.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by Riot

Right now a good number of our jockeys have brittle, thin bones (chronic malnutrition), esophageal varicies or bleeding from chronic heaving, permanent heart and kidney damage and electrolyte imbalances (especially calcium, potassium) from extreme dieting and the chronic abuse of diuretics and purgatives, etc.

Maybe only a very few of them should be riding in the afternoons right now anyway? The naturally smaller young apprentices and young journeymen that stay very small - they can ride for a few years, and as they enter their mid-twenties and start accumulating too much weight they should quit?

As you move from the current extreme edge of the bell curve (where only 1-2% of the population is a certain size, and everyone but young apprentices has to abuse their bodies to make weight) towards the middle a few pounds, you'll have a greater population able to hold a certain weight - from above and below that point on the bell curve - without having to physically abusing themselves by bulemia, cocaine, sweatboxes, lasix and other diuretic and purgative abuse, etc.

The population in the US has been getting taller over the past century, so the available population for that extreme side of the bell curve has been getting smaller and smaller. Yet we still want people that fit into that size limitation from a century ago (I think NY has raised their weights a few years back) and now we can rarely find people of that small size in the US, we have to get them from countries that are, health and nutrition-wise, still a century behind us.

"Where will it end" is the most important question, because over the same time period horses have been getting faster, meaning lighter in bone, etc - how much weight can the horses of today be asked to safely carry? Not much more than they are now, I think.

good post.

thoughtful. nuanced. pretty much everything i never expect to find on an internet board.

[fpsoxfan]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

good post.

thoughtful. nuanced. pretty much everything i never expect to find on an internet board.

Almost as good as the one where you were trying to say that Lukas is a shitty trainer because his former "assitants" haven't done well. Hmmmm....

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by fpsoxfan

Almost as good as the one where you were trying to say that Lukas is a shitty trainer because his former "assitants" haven't done well. Hmmmm....

don't forget the one where i brought up the long whip he used on azeri in training.

btw: quotation marks should contain actual quotes.

[Riot]

good post.thoughtful. nuanced. pretty much everything i never expect to find on an internet board.

I'm sorry.

[fpsoxfan]

It's very sad to me what many of the Jocks have to put themselves through.
I was just getting into the game when Randy Romero was at his peak. I feel sorry for the guy and what he goes through, but I think what Hossy is saying is accurate. Even if the weights are increased there will always be those who will resort to abusing their bodies in order to make weight. But as Dahoss says, it's the profession they've chosen. They could always try something else.

[Riot]

Sometimes we can't be what we want to because of size, it sucks, but oh well.

I know. My dream of being an anorexic runway supermodel died at 15

[disappearingdan_akaplaya]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

There is no penalty for success, but isn't it a bit hypocritical that Lukas seems to suffer the backlash of people who are jealous of his success? What prominent owners has he lost? Bob Lewis passes away, so did the Saudi Prince and Overbrook has seemingly cut down the amount of horses they are racing. Yeah his numbers have declined, it's hard to stay on top for that long. People have real short memories. The guy won 6 straight triple crown races from '94-'96. That's not an easy feat. I'll trust his opinions on jocks, his career speaks for itslef.

padua yanked a ton of horses from him, im not denyin what the guy did in the past but his better years have been behind him for quite sometime now