Country Star

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

She's a good horse, and ran faster I think than Zenyatta, and I am very curious to see if she can run on the dirt. If she's as good on dirt as she is on turf and synthetic turf then she's a potential star. However, personally I look forward to betting against her on dirt.

Why wouldn't it be enough if she were just a turf and poly star? The game is changing.

It's interesting that the other in the money horses out of her initial race have come back to perform very, very well on the dirt. (Of course, they had worse trips than she did.)

Does something in her stride/racing style indicate that she won't be able to handle the dirt? If anything, there's been steady improvement in her form/footwork from race to race.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Why wouldn't it be enough if she were just a turf and poly star? The game is changing.

It's interesting that the other in the money horses out of her initial race have come back to perform very, very well on the dirt. (Of course, they had worse trips than she did.)

Does something in her stride/racing style indicate that she won't be able to handle the dirt? If anything, there's been steady improvement in her form/footwork from race to race.

I never said there was anything wrong with her being just a turf horse. I love turf racing. All I said was she hasn't shown that she can run well on the dirt.

She's a very talented horse. Whether or not she's a " very talented dirt horse " has yet to be determined. We'll see. In my opinion, if Frankel thought she was a dirt superstar her debut would have come on the dirt.

[Riot]

She's a very talented horse. Whether or not she's a " very talented dirt horse " has yet to be determined. We'll see. In my opinion, if Frankel thought she was a dirt superstar her debut would have come on the dirt.

I think he indeed thinks her a superstar with scary-good potential, and has purposely avoided the dirt (no Breeders Cup) to help prevent possible injury, so she can dazzle as a 3-year-old.

Running her on synthetics possibly makes her a bit fitter than her dirt counterparts, giving her a good 3-year-old base without the same risk of time off for bucking or chips.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Riot

I think he indeed thinks her a superstar with scary-good potential, and has purposely avoided the dirt (no Breeders Cup) to help prevent possible injury, so she can dazzle as a 3-year-old.

Running her on synthetics possibly makes her a bit fitter than her dirt counterpoints, giving her a good 3-year-old base without the same risk of time off for bucking or chips.

This is one of the steamiest and biggest piles of crap I have ever heard. I mean, honestly, do you think about this garbage before spewing it or are you so desperate in hoping that even one person will buy this " polytrack is a feather bed and dirt is a pit of fire " nonsense that you will say anything?

Before posting this perhaps you should have looked at how many times Frankel risked her life and health by working her on the dirt ( five times at Saratoga and two times prior to her debut at Belmont ). He was so worried about the evil dirt surface that he worked her at Belmont prior to the Alcibiades, and after her debut, and then returned her to Belmont after Keeneland and worked her on the dirt there some more.

[Riot]

This is one of the steamiest and biggest piles of crap I have ever heard. I mean, honestly, do you think about this garbage before spewing it or are you so desperate in hoping that even one person will buy this " polytrack is a feather bed and dirt is a pit of fire " nonsense that you will say anything?

If you want to be moronic and insulting, have at it. Doesn't bother me when you appear foolish.

Before posting this perhaps you should have looked at how many times Frankel risked her life and health by working her on the dirt ( five times at Saratoga and two times prior to her debut at Belmont ). He was so worried about the evil dirt surface that he worked her at Belmont prior to the Alcibiades, and after her debut, and then returned her to Belmont after Keeneland and worked her on the dirt there some more.

Racing and working are different circumstances, one controlable and one not. He can race this filly anywhere he wants. I think he's planning this filly's career - not season - very carefully.

[blackthroatedwind]

You made the inane point that he avoided to dirt to prevent injury.....and I explained that it simply wasn't true. Your polytrack flagwaving clouds your thinking.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

You made the inane point that he avoided to dirt to prevent injury.....and I explained that it simply wasn't true. Your polytrack flagwaving clouds your thinking.

Yes, I think he deliberately avoided racing this filly on dirt, to help avoid injuries common to fast and talented 2-year-olds that race on dirt. It's a fact that horses running on synthetic surfaces have less bone injuries - hence why I mentioned bucking and chips, two of the biggest career-delays in promising young horses.

You think Country Star hasn't raced on dirt as Frankle may think she may not be as good on that surface. I think there are other reasons he hasn't raced her yet on dirt.

You could ask me what concerns I do have about young horses running on synthetic surfaces.

But then, you might learn something, and have to give up your broad generalized characterizations about both the surfaces, and those that support them.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Why wouldn't it be enough if she were just a turf and poly star? The game is changing.

It's interesting that the other in the money horses out of her initial race have come back to perform very, very well on the dirt. (Of course, they had worse trips than she did.)

Does something in her stride/racing style indicate that she won't be able to handle the dirt? If anything, there's been steady improvement in her form/footwork from race to race.

I know this was not for me but I wanted to give my answer to that anyway. I've always had a feeling that when people start their horses out on grass, it's often a sign that they haven't been too happy with what they've seen on dirt. Maybe that's silly but that's just something that's always been a part of my thinking. In America, dirt racing has always been king and while there have certainly been some great grass horses here, it often seems that quite a few of them go that route only after they've not lived up to expectations on the dirt.

As for what you say about the game changing, that's certainly correct. Because all of the racing in California will be done on synthetic tracks, a horse can have a pretty solid career and pick up some pretty big wins and never race on real dirt in his/her life. The fact that it will be done on fake dirt will always leave some question but at the same time, if the horse is better than all of the competition, that's all that matters. But as I said, there will be questions. Sort of like the situation with Lava Man. No question that he was a star and he dominated California racing like few others have. But we know how his story went when he had to leave his comfort zone. It used to be that we would only have to debate turf horses versus dirt horses in trying to decide who's the best. Now we will have something else thrown into the mix. This year, Ginger Punch is the top dirt mare, Lahudood is the top grass mare and Nashoba's Key is the top synthetic mare. Who is the best? Who knows?

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I know this was not for me but I wanted to give my answer to that anyway. I've always had a feeling that when people start their horses out on grass, it's often a sign that they haven't been too happy with what they've seen on dirt. Maybe that's silly but that's just something that's always been a part of my thinking. In America, dirt racing has always been king and while there have certainly been some great grass horses here, it often seems that quite a few of them go that route only after they've not lived up to expectations on the dirt.

I understand this philosophy. The only thing in my mind that causes me to wonder whether that is the case here is the general inability of MSW races going long, especially for fillies, to fill in New York. Perhaps Frankel ran her on turf because the distance of the race was more important to him than the surface over which it was conteted. Certainly, Country Star was well-bet first time out on turf, so she probably showed something somewhere in the morning. I'm not saying this is the case, but just offering another possible explanation.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I understand this philosophy. The only thing in my mind that causes me to wonder whether that is the case here is the general inability of MSW races going long, especially for fillies, to fill in New York. Perhaps Frankel ran her on turf because the distance of the race was more important to him than the surface over which it was conteted. Certainly, Country Star was well-bet first time out on turf, so she probably showed something somewhere in the morning. I'm not saying this is the case, but just offering another possible explanation.

A certain other Frankel filly made one start on the turf early on too and if memory serves that filly was pretty good on the dirt.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

A certain other Frankel filly made one start on the turf early on too and if memory serves that filly was pretty good on the dirt.

She debuted on the dirt and won impressively. Then she ran on the turf, and failed to very mediocre horses, and Frankel realized that, as her debut indicated, she was a dirt horse. But, he found out if she was a dirt horse first.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I understand this philosophy. The only thing in my mind that causes me to wonder whether that is the case here is the general inability of MSW races going long, especially for fillies, to fill in New York. Perhaps Frankel ran her on turf because the distance of the race was more important to him than the surface over which it was conteted. Certainly, Country Star was well-bet first time out on turf, so she probably showed something somewhere in the morning. I'm not saying this is the case, but just offering another possible explanation.

Actually, considering her connections and pedigree, she was pretty tepid on the board at over 6.5-1 that day.

However, the distance possibility is certainly possible. But, they ran more than a few 7F races on the dirt, and it's not as though Frankel is afraid to lose first time out anyway, so he could have run in one of those.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I don't think anyone can really know what to expect from Country Star when she runs on dirt. Her pedigree projects well enough for dirt - and Frankel's most recent interview gave the impression he thinks she will handle it well - but it's hard not to forget a horse like the Frankel trained Cantabria bet to odds-on favortisim in last years Grade 2 El Encino.

It was her dirt debut, and she was being bet on the basis of a performance over the HP cushion track. She ran a very non-threatning 5th, always struggling.

From a gambling standpoint - I don't want her first time she runs on the dirt. Would she be a bet against? - because she projects fairly well to handle the surface - I don't think she has to be.

As for the soon to be champ,

Indian Blessing is a natural sprinter - and a very good one at that - who's managed to win a pair of soft division Grade 1 races at distances beyond her scope despite staggering away the final quarter mile on fumes.

A lot can happen between now and the Oaks - but riders on horses of all styles rarely bide there time in very important races when accomplished horses like IB are free running on the lead - if IB can sustain or somehow raise her repute from now until the Oaks ... you get the feeling that the race could have a collapse scenario... and some horse who fits the profile of a Lemons Forever (beyond talentless - but always grinding) will run a race that will make such a horse look far better than she really is.