Breeders' Cup Going for Grade 1's Again

[the_fat_man]

I just don't get all the disparagement concerning turf sprints. I think it takes a special kind of sprinter to be able to handle the turf, one that's a better athlete than it's dirt counterpart, as there's much more involved in terms of footwork on the turf than on the dirt. And, like all turf races, turf sprints are much more challenging in terms of race strategy and, in turn, handicapping. And I don't buy into the notion that only horses that can't run on the dirt turn to the turf, as if it were their last recourse. Two examples, off the top of my head, of turf sprinters that are at least as good, if not better, on the dirt: Gold Trippi and Giant Deputy.

I realize they're not top of the line runners but they're certainly not crows.

Can only hope that PJ Campo keeps 'em coming next year at BEL and SAR.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

I just don't get all the disparagement concerning turf sprints. I think it takes a special kind of sprinter to be able to handle the turf, one that's a better athlete than it's dirt counterpart, as there's much more involved in terms of footwork on the turf than on the dirt. And, like all turf races, turf sprints are much more challenging in terms of race strategy and, in turn, handicapping. And I don't buy into the notion that only horses that can't run on the dirt turn to the turf, as if it were their last recourse. Two examples, off the top of my head, of turf sprinters that are at least as good, if not better, on the dirt: Gold Trippi and Giant Deputy.

I realize they're not top of the line runners but they're certainly not crows.

Can only hope that PJ Campo keeps 'em coming next year at BEL and SAR.

Not " only " but probably the majority.

I'm not disparaging turf sprints ( though I believe there are too many at the cheaper levels run in NY ). I'm all for a daily mix of races. If I don't like a kind of race I will work around it. If the turf sprints work for you, great, as I'm sure there are other kinds of races some favor that you don't.

That, however, is not the discussion at least I'm having here.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

I just don't get all the disparagement concerning turf sprints. I think it takes a special kind of sprinter to be able to handle the turf, one that's a better athlete than it's dirt counterpart, as there's much more involved in terms of footwork on the turf than on the dirt. And, like all turf races, turf sprints are much more challenging in terms of race strategy and, in turn, handicapping. And I don't buy into the notion that only horses that can't run on the dirt turn to the turf, as if it were their last recourse. Two examples, off the top of my head, of turf sprinters that are at least as good, if not better, on the dirt: Gold Trippi and Giant Deputy.

I realize they're not top of the line runners but they're certainly not crows.

Can only hope that PJ Campo keeps 'em coming next year at BEL and SAR.

Turf sprints are a last resort for any intact horse and any filly/mare simply becase there are so few graded stakes in that "division" and the whole game is about getting black type. I can guarantee there are no horses running in turf sprints that could be out competing in other more lucrative divisions.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Turf sprints are a last resort for any intact horse and any filly/mare simply becase there are so few graded stakes in that "division" and the whole game is about getting black type. I can guarantee there are no horses running in turf sprints that could be out competing in other more lucrative divisions.

yet, there are horses that are very talented turf sprinters; even excel at it. in fact, they're able to run faster on the turf than their dirt counterparts do on dirt (this is obviously because of the surface, right?). and, would probably beat those competing in 'more lucrative divisions' on the turf. once again, if we are to assume that these horses are the bottom feeders of racing, we need to have established that their dirt counterparts are better than they are on the turf. and, since, running on the turf is clearly beneath them, we'll never know for sure, will we? it goes round and round.

I also find it a bit ironic, that the very expensive, the very well bred, Green Monkey, was every bit the flop on turf that he is on dirt. then again, he was routing; there's still the sprint turf option left for him.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

yet, there are horses that are very talented turf sprinters; even excel at it. in fact, they're able to run faster on the turf than their dirt counterparts do on dirt (this is obviously because of the surface, right?). and, would probably beat those competing in 'more lucrative divisions' on the turf. once again, if we are to assume that these horses are the bottom feeders of racing, we need to have established that their dirt counterparts are better than they are on the turf. and, since, running on the turf is clearly beneath them, we'll never know for sure, will we? it goes round and round.

I also find it a bit ironic, that the very expensive, the very well bred, Green Monkey, was every bit the flop on turf that he is on dirt. then again, he was routing; there's still the sprint turf option left for him.

Yeah, and notice it is the last option. How many horses can you find me that established themselves as turf sprinters and didn't try and become a turf miler or a dirt sprinter? You won't find any, any that have the talent to get out of that division do so cause there is no black type to be earned there. The ones that stay are the ones that can't do anything else.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Yeah, and notice it is the last option. How many horses can you find me that established themselves as turf sprinters and didn't try and become a turf miler or a dirt sprinter? You won't find any, any that have the talent to get out of that division do so cause there is no black type to be earned there. The ones that stay are the ones that can't do anything else.

And horses like Midnight Lute can only sprint on the dirt but we dont call him limited or untalented

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Turf sprints are a last resort for any intact horse and any filly/mare simply becase there are so few graded stakes in that "division" and the whole game is about getting black type. I can guarantee there are no horses running in turf sprints that could be out competing in other more lucrative divisions.

Which is kind of my point. If there were more opportunities than the talent level would rise proportionally. You would also see more imported sprinters though with the dollar as weak as it is only the mega wealthy could do it. It would also diversify the stallion ranks eventually which would be a positive for the sport in general.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Which is kind of my point. If there were more opportunities than the talent level would rise proportionally. You would also see more imported sprinters though with the dollar as weak as it is only the mega wealthy could do it. It would also diversify the stallion ranks eventually which would be a positive for the sport in general.

I hear you, it was the same point I was making about the Juvenile Turf when they first added it. If you make the race the preps will develop. I saw the Pilgrim and Miss Grillo already jumped to G3 as a result of the BC Juvy Turf. The combo of the BC Juvy Turf and synthetic surfaces has to give a lot more incentive to breed for the turf. I don't have a problem with the race, just don't see the need for $1 million unless they can become part of the international series and draw top foreign horses to it. The current top horses in that division are the ones that can't cut it anywhere else so I don't see them as needing a championship.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I hear you, it was the same point I was making about the Juvenile Turf when they first added it. If you make the race the preps will develop. I saw the Pilgrim and Miss Grillo already jumped to G3 as a result of the BC Juvy Turf. The combo of the BC Juvy Turf and synthetic surfaces has to give a lot more incentive to breed for the turf. I don't have a problem with the race, just don't see the need for $1 million unless they can become part of the international series and draw top foreign horses to it. The current top horses in that division are the ones that can't cut it anywhere else so I don't see them as needing a championship.

I believe the Pilgrim and Miss Grillo used to be grade 3's

The Breeders Cup is not a real championship. Winning the race does not make you a champion or guarantee an eclipse.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I believe the Pilgrim and Miss Grillo used to be grade 3's

The Breeders Cup is not a real championship. Winning the race does not make you a champion or guarantee an eclipse.

I'm pretty sure they were before dropping off to ungraded cause 2yo turf racing was considered irrelevant.

Don't let NTRA hear you say that.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I'm pretty sure they were before dropping off to ungraded cause 2yo turf racing was considered irrelevant.

Don't let NTRA hear you say that.

I think it was becaue they cut the purses or moved them to Aquecuct or something.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Maybe they compete in turf sprints because A) they are bred for turf, and B) they are bred to sprint.

That is poor breeding if anyone is that unblessed. People do everything possible to not breed a horse to be a turf sprinter.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

That is poor breeding if anyone is that unblessed. People do everything possible to not breed a horse to be a turf sprinter.

That is absolutely untrue. The fact is that many of our top stallions like Mr. Greely are exactly that. You dont know it because there aren't any races here for them to show it. Mizzen Mast is another sire who has the ability to get a really good turf sprinter and himself was a grade 1 winner on the dirt despite being by Cozzene.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

That is absolutely untrue. The fact is that many of our top stallions like Mr. Greely are exactly that. You dont know it because there aren't any races here for them to show it. Mizzen Mast is another sire who has the ability to get a really good turf sprinter and himself was a grade 1 winner on the dirt despite being by Cozzene.

Yeah, but Mr Greeley is throwing runners in all divisions on all continents, he isn't just throwing turf sprinters out there. Maybe his horses would be best in turf sprints but the top ones don't run in them cause there is nothing to gain there.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Yeah, but Mr Greeley is throwing runners in all divisions on all continents, he isn't just throwing turf sprinters out there. Maybe his horses would be best in turf sprints but the top ones don't run in them cause there is nothing to gain there.

He is a better turf sire and he can get a really good sprinter. There are a lot of horses that are bred to be turf sprinters but like you said there are no opportunities for them. There is no reason that turf horses should not have a sprinting division. There really isn't.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

That is poor breeding if anyone is that unblessed. People do everything possible to not breed a horse to be a turf sprinter.

People might do everything possible not to breed a horse to be a turf sprinter in North America.

But if the Breeders' Cup is going to truly evolve into a "World Championship of Racing" as they bill theirselves, a big race for turf sprinters only makes sense.

A turf sprinting mare just won HOTY in Australia. You think they were disappointed she couldn't go long?

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

That is poor breeding if anyone is that unblessed. People do everything possible to not breed a horse to be a turf sprinter.

But that is what genetics will sometimes throw up. Even classic-type horses will sire sprinters because of 'genetic drift'. That was because the ancestral wild (not feral, like mustangs) horse didn't need top speed for more than 2 or 3 furlongs to put enough distance between them and a predator to escape. It took centuries, nay, millennia of human intervention in horse breeding to produce animals who could run at this speed over a distance of ground. If we suddenly turned all TBs into the wild and let them breed as they choose, in a hundred years none of them would be able to break 2:10 for 10f. Maybe not even 2:20.

I, by the way, have never been in favor of rewarding failed TBs with a million-dollar race in the form of the BC Sprint. Not failed racehorses, you notice, but horses who have failed the challenge of stretching their speed to classic distances, which defines the TB and separates it from its sub-breed, the running Quarter Horse. (Check out QH pedigrees - 75% or more of the names in them are known TBs, with many of the unknowns likely to be TBs taken West for breeding cavalry remounts.)