Breeders' Cup Going for Grade 1's Again

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I dont understand why you guys care what grade a race is given. If they make the Juvy turf a grade 1 what is the impact on your life or the sport in general? Pretty much none unless you happen to own the winner. It just is not a big deal.

I also dont understand why anyone cares if the Breeders Cup wants to add races like a Turf sprint. So what if they have a million dollar turf sprint. It is not like they are taxing you with a higher takeout because of it. The result of the turf sprint should be the creation of another division of horses that may race past 3.

1) Cause I'm a fan of the sport and don't want to see it further cheapened by creating more non-deserving G1 winners.

2) The more BC G1s the more likely the races start cannibilizing each other. Imagine if Hard Spun hadn't won the King's Bishop and the same deal was in place where the owner/trainer would get an additional $15 million from Darley if he won a G1 by the end of the year. In that scenario if the BC Dirt Mile was G1 wouldn't it have been a no brainer that he would have gone in that race and in turn significantly hurt the field for the BC Classic?

3) Why pay $1 million when you could draw the same field for $250,000? You would then have an additional $750,000 to spread out among the BC supplemented races across the entire racing calendar.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

1) Cause I'm a fan of the sport and don't want to see it further cheapened by creating more non-deserving G1 winners.

2) The more BC G1s the more likely the races start cannibilizing each other. Imagine if Hard Spun hadn't won the King's Bishop and the same deal was in place where the owner/trainer would get an additional $15 million from Darley if he won a G1 by the end of the year. In that scenario if the BC Dirt Mile was G1 wouldn't it have been a no brainer that he would have gone in that race and in turn significantly hurt the field for the BC Classic?

3) Why pay $1 million when you could draw the same field for $250,000? You would then have an additional $750,000 to spread out among the BC supplemented races across the entire racing calendar.

1. As a fan of the sport what are the personal ramifications of another Grade 1 race? How can 3 or 4 more Grade 1 winners take away from your enjoyment? Who is to say that a grade 1 winner will not participate in the new race or go on to become a multiple grade 1 winner?
2. 2year old turf races, a filly sprint and turf sprint would hardly cannibilize any existing races. If Hard Spun had not run in the Classic would would be different today? Nothing of substance. The fact that a guy can make an additional $15 million for winning any race on the Breeders Cup card is a good thing.
3. That logic is flawed. If there was a $1million dollar turf sprint it could be the US leg of the International turf sprint series which would certainly draw foreigners especially considering the bonus structure of that series. Spreading out $750000 out among the year long events would add far too little to these races to make any impact.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

1. As a fan of the sport what are the personal ramifications of another Grade 1 race? How can 3 or 4 more Grade 1 winners take away from your enjoyment? Who is to say that a grade 1 winner will not participate in the new race or go on to become a multiple grade 1 winner?
2. 2year old turf races, a filly sprint and turf sprint would hardly cannibilize any existing races. If Hard Spun had not run in the Classic would would be different today? Nothing of substance. The fact that a guy can make an additional $15 million for winning any race on the Breeders Cup card is a good thing.
3. That logic is flawed. If there was a $1million dollar turf sprint it could be the US leg of the International turf sprint series which would certainly draw foreigners especially considering the bonus structure of that series. Spreading out $750000 out among the year long events would add far too little to these races to make any impact.

1) More terrible G1 winners like Flashy Bull cheapens the sport to me and in turn makes it tougher to stay a fan of the sport. It is like expanding the MLB All Star rosters to 40 and then telling me a player is great because he made the All Star Game. It just cheapens the whole system. I like it that you can judge horses by what grade stakes they have won and want it to stay that way.

2) I don't have a problem with those races if they draw quality fields. I said earlier I think the FM Sprint should absolutely be a G1. It is the tweener races like the Dirt Mile or a 10f turf race that I would like to see designated as a lower grade to prevent stealing horses from other races. Put them on equal footing and it cheapens the whole event.

3) I'd love it if the race were going to be the first leg of that series and would absolutely believe that would warrant the $1 million purse and G1 status. However, I think it is more likely it would draw a field like the previously mentioned Hollywood Turf Express which you could draw for $250,000 and have $750,000 to spread to the rest of the racing calendar.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

1) More terrible G1 winners like Flashy Bull cheapens the sport to me and in turn makes it tougher to stay a fan of the sport. It is like expanding the MLB All Star rosters to 40 and then telling me a player is great because he made the All Star Game. It just cheapens the whole system. I like it that you can judge horses by what grade stakes they have won and want it to stay that way.

2) I don't have a problem with those races if they draw quality fields. I said earlier I think the FM Sprint should absolutely be a G1. It is the tweener races like the Dirt Mile or a 10f turf race that I would like to see designated as a lower grade to prevent stealing horses from other races. Put them on equal footing and it cheapens the whole event.

3) I'd love it if the race were going to be the first leg of that series and would absolutely believe that would warrant the $1 million purse and G1 status. However, I think it is more likely it would draw a field like the previously mentioned Hollywood Turf Express which you could draw for $250,000 and have $750,000 to spread to the rest of the racing calendar.

The issue I have with your 1st argument is that though I agree that Flashy Bull does not belong on a list of greats of the game he won a legit grade 1 race and he won it pretty easily. Sure the entire older horse division was crap this year but that does not mean we need to downgrade all the races. Determining the merits of a horse based upon his/her winning an single graded event and using the subsquent grade as evidence of those merits is a poor way of measuring ability. To say Horse A is a better horse than Horse B because he has a grade 1 win and horse B has a grade 2 win is an extremely simplistic and flawed way of looking at things. The fact is and remains that the grading system was meant as a tool for breeders and is flawed and arbitrary system. I guess the whole point is if it brings together a diverse group of horses from different areas of the country and world then why does any one care what the purse or grade is? And the truth is that the extra $750k would probably stay in the coffers of the BC where it does noone any good.

It may become the 1st leg of that series if it existed. How would that be a bad thing? It is like the all star snub argument. It seems like it is a story for a few days but in the end it blows over and only those directly affected remember. Only a few months ago the majority of people here were adamantly against a filly and mare sprint and I would say that the numbers on that have probably flipped. I agree with StS that the BC has ruined the fall racing season especially in NY but that is now something that is not going to change.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The issue I have with your 1st argument is that though I agree that Flashy Bull does not belong on a list of greats of the game he won a legit grade 1 race and he won it pretty easily. Sure the entire older horse division was crap this year but that does not mean we need to downgrade all the races. Determining the merits of a horse based upon his/her winning an single graded event and using the subsquent grade as evidence of those merits is a poor way of measuring ability. To say Horse A is a better horse than Horse B because he has a grade 1 win and horse B has a grade 2 win is an extremely simplistic and flawed way of looking at things. The fact is and remains that the grading system was meant as a tool for breeders and is flawed and arbitrary system. I guess the whole point is if it brings together a diverse group of horses from different areas of the country and world then why does any one care what the purse or grade is? And the truth is that the extra $750k would probably stay in the coffers of the BC where it does noone any good.

It may become the 1st leg of that series if it existed. How would that be a bad thing? It is like the all star snub argument. It seems like it is a story for a few days but in the end it blows over and only those directly affected remember. Only a few months ago the majority of people here were adamantly against a filly and mare sprint and I would say that the numbers on that have probably flipped. I agree with StS that the BC has ruined the fall racing season especially in NY but that is now something that is not going to change.

If the only thing stopping it from becoming the first leg of that series is getting G1 status then go ahead and announce it tomorrow as a G1 race. Until it becomes part of that series though it doesn't deserve anything more than G3 status and really has no need for a million dollar purse since the foreign horses won't come until it is in the series.

I was totally in favor of the FM Sprint from the beginning. I was in favor of all three from the beginning actually but now have soured at the prospect of the Dirt Mile going G1. I think there are even a few more races they could add (if they must add more) but a 10f turf race should definitely not be one of them.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

If the only thing stopping it from becoming the first leg of that series is getting G1 status then go ahead and announce it tomorrow as a G1 race. Until it becomes part of that series though it doesn't deserve anything more than G3 status and really has no need for a million dollar purse since the foreign horses won't come until it is in the series.

I was totally in favor of the FM Sprint from the beginning. I was in favor of all three from the beginning actually but now have soured at the prospect of the Dirt Mile going G1. I think there are even a few more races they could add (if they must add more) but a 10f turf race should definitely not be one of them.

I also dont understand why we necessaily are looking for more European competitors. Outside this year I dont remember the lack of Euros being an issue. I also think a 1 1/4 turf race would be overkill. The worst race and the worst idea is the idea of a dirt marathon. What kind of field would this race attract? The thought that that sort of race would keep horses in training or change breeding patterns is ludicrious.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I also dont understand why we necessaily are looking for more European competitors. Outside this year I dont remember the lack of Euros being an issue. I also think a 1 1/4 turf race would be overkill. The worst race and the worst idea is the idea of a dirt marathon. What kind of field would this race attract? The thought that that sort of race would keep horses in training or change breeding patterns is ludicrious.

If we aren't looking for foreign horses in a turf sprint then there is no reason for a purse over $250,000. The exact same American horses will show up either way. Spread that money elsewhere.

You mean there shouldn't be a million dollar race for Malibu Moonshine?