Worse KY Derby winner...

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Some of you guys really forget about how downright awful Sea Hero was when he wasn't on - which was most of the time.

And when he did jump up and run a good race - it wasn't very good. Both he and Giacomo had lifetime top Beyers of 109.

Giacomo's race in the Goodwood prior to his 4th by 4 to the big three in the BC Classic was a very sneaky good race. Lava Man beat him by only three lengths - despite taking advantage of a slow pace on a very inside-speed biased track. He ran a 104 Beyer with every possible thing against him that day...in a way a better race than his 4th in the Classic next out.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Some of you guys really forget about how downright awful Sea Hero was when he wasn't on - which was most of the time.

And when he did jump up and run a good race - it wasn't very good. Both he and Giacomo had lifetime top Beyers of 109.

Giacomo's race in the Goodwood prior to his 4th by 4 to the big three in the BC Classic was a very sneaky good race. Lava Man beat him by only three lengths - despite taking advantage of a slow pace on a very inside-speed biased track. He ran a 104 Beyer with every possible thing against him that day...in a way a better race than his 4th in the Classic next out.

Your exactly right. I couldn't believe how overrated he was. But after Giacomo, a new standard for incompetence was set.

Now if we went back 25 years to 1982, Gato Del Sol might've been the worst of all.

[letswastemoney]

Giacomo did race on the west coast mostly back before the synthetic came in, so I would agree he was always racing against the bias. He might have had more success as an east coast based horse.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

His loss in the Goodwood was over a track where speed couldn't lose...and Lava Man and Brother Derek both loafed and didn't pressure each other. Yet he was carving into their lead late.

It was a true strong biased track - there were occasionaly times when closers did very well on Santa Anita's dirt...that day certainly wasn't one of them.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by JJP

Your exactly right. I couldn't believe how overrated he was. But after Giacomo, a new standard for incompetence was set.

Now if we went back 25 years to 1982, Gato Del Sol might've been the worst of all.

Goto Del SLOW was the worst that I remember, but any Kentucky Derby winner is at the top of his class and I will take that any day.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I think if you asked people which Derby winner had the lowest lifetime top Beyer - few people would get the answer right.

It's Charismatic - who had a 108 career top - one point less than Giacomo and Sea Hero.

I guess something of a rational case could be made for Charismatic as the worst Derby winner over that time.

In the first ten starts of his career - he never ran a Beyer higher than 85 - was twice offered up for claiming tags - and never even exceeded the 95 level until April 18th.

He got FIRECRACKER HOT with one of the most improbable wins I've ever seen on the Derby Trail with an authetic 108 Beyer and eye-brow raising move rarely made over Keeneland's dirt when he won the Lexington at 12/1. Followed that mysterious big race up with a Derby win at 31/1, a Preakness win at 8/1, and than came apart in the Belmont.

The case for him being the worst would be 'he was a terrible horse all the way up till Mid-April of his 3yo season, and though he punched out four strong races in seven weeks including a 3rd in the Belmont Stakes - he wasn't sound enough to make it through the triple crown.

I think you'd have to hold his injury against him to make him the worst ever though.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I think if you asked people which Derby winner had the lowest lifetime top Beyer - few people would get the answer right.

It's Charismatic - who had a 108 career top - one point less than Giacomo and Sea Hero.

I guess something of a rational case could be made for Charismatic as the worst Derby winner over that time.

In the first ten starts of his career - he never ran a Beyer higher than 85 - was twice offered up for claiming tags - and never even exceeded the 95 level until April 18th.

He got FIRECRACKER HOT with one of the most improbable wins I've ever seen on the Derby Trail with an authetic 108 Beyer and eye-brow raising move rarely made over Keeneland's dirt when he won the Lexington at 12/1. Followed that mysterious big race up with a Derby win at 31/1, a Preakness win at 8/1, and than came apart in the Belmont.

The case for him being the worst would be 'he was a terrible horse all the way up till Mid-April of his 3yo season, and though he punched out four strong races in seven weeks including a 3rd in the Belmont Stakes - he wasn't sound enough to make it through the triple crown.

I think you'd have to hold his injury against him to make him the worst ever though.

He ran pretty well when he "came apart."

Beyer figures being what they are, I can't agree with any argument stating Charismatic was the worst Derby winner ever. I also can't hold the injury against him.

If you're talking about horses who just got good at the right time and benefited from either weak crops or perfect setups, wouldn't War Emblem come up? I know he got a 112 in a bias-aided win at Sportsman's, but before that he was nothing special. All he did after winning two legs of the Triple Crown was go gate to wire in the Haskell in a paceless race where the track took him home.

Maybe I just never liked War Emblem.

NT

[JJP]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

He ran pretty well when he "came apart."

Beyer figures being what they are, I can't agree with any argument stating Charismatic was the worst Derby winner ever. I also can't hold the injury against him.

If you're talking about horses who just got good at the right time and benefited from either weak crops or perfect setups, wouldn't War Emblem come up? I know he got a 112 in a bias-aided win at Sportsman's, but before that he was nothing special. All he did after winning two legs of the Triple Crown was go gate to wire in the Haskell in a paceless race where the track took him home.

Maybe I just never liked War Emblem.

NT

The win at Sportsman's wasn't bias aided. I guess in this age of synthetic, any speed win over real dirt gets lumped in as "bias-aided".

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by JJP

The win at Sportsman's wasn't bias aided. I guess in this age of synthetic, any speed win over real dirt gets lumped in as "bias-aided".

No that's more from Sportsman's having one of the most notoriously speed-biased surfaces, especially going two turns.

NT

[letswastemoney]

I think Charismatic would have had a solid career if he didn't get injured. His sibling Tossofthecoin picked up several checks in G1s as an older horse.

Then again if Charismatic didn't get injured he would have been retired probably anyway.....so I dunno

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I think anyone who was around and following the game closely in '99 has to remember how disgracefully bad of a horse Charismatic was going into the Lexington.

The fact that he was only 44/1 in the Santa Anita Derby was a joke in itself...and he got drubbed pretty good by the blah Generally Challenged. He was 4th beaten 8+ to him.

'99 was a fairly weak year. I believe Steven Got Even would have been the Derby favorite that year, if not for the fact that Generally Challenged and Excellent Meeting were coupled in the betting.

War Emblem was a better horse than Charismatic. He ran several very good races. His win in the Preakness was outstanding - because he proved he could win inspite of taking all the early heat and not getting anything his way.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I think anyone who was around and following the game closely in '99 has to remember how disgracefully bad of a horse Charismatic was going into the Lexington.

The fact that he was only 44/1 in the Santa Anita Derby was a joke in itself...and he got drubbed pretty good by the blah Generally Challenged. He was 4th beaten 8+ to him.

'99 was a fairly weak year. I believe Steven Got Even would have been the Derby favorite that year, if not for the fact that Generally Challenged and Excellent Meeting were coupled in the betting.

War Emblem was a better horse than Charismatic. He ran several very good races. His win in the Preakness was outstanding - because he proved he could win inspite of taking all the early heat and not getting anything his way.

I was following the game closely and remember vividly Charismatic's past performances. What I said was that Charismatic hit his stride in the Lexington and then followed that effort up with a good Derby and good Preakness. Calling him the worst Derby winner ever can only be done by penalizing him for his career ending prematurely. I know that he was a claimer and that he had few good speed figures prior to the Derby, but he ran three very good races in a row and then was brave in defeat in the Belmont.

NT

[HaloWishingwell]

Any votes for FUSAICHI OVERRATED,CHARISMATIC or MONARCHOS?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Overrated as he was - Fusaichi Pegasus would have also murdered Sea Hero and Giacomo.

[HaloWishingwell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Overrated as he was - Fusaichi Pegasus would have also murdered Sea Hero and Giacomo.

Or pulled up

[_ed_]

Originally Posted by HaloWishingwell

MONARCHOS?

That's the first name that popped into my mind. Admittedly I've only been watching the Derby since 2000.

[Indian Charlie]

to me there can be only 3 possibilities. sea hero, charismatic and the legendary gato del sal (as i like to call giacamo).

the sea hero derby wins it for me as that's the only derby (since i got involved in racing) that i ever refused to watch.

[RolloTomasi]

If his other accomplishments don't matter, than surely his other losses don't matter either. Its rather apparent from his record that Sea Hero was the type of horse that had to run to find his best form, something that was exploited masterfully by Mack Miller, given that aside from a maiden win (which took several starts) and an allowance tune-up at 4, his only other victories came in the important Champagne, Derby, and Travers. If you want to dock him for losing blatant prep races like the Bluegrass and Jim Dandy, then that just underlines one of racing's major problems nowadays: that trainers (and fans) somehow have come to expect that top horses have to win every start.

Not that his best efforts were necessarily killer, but Sea Hero won races when it most mattered, and the fact that he was able to produce top form and win 3 of his 6 most important tests (Champagne, BC Juvenile, Derby, Preakness, Belmont, Travers) by open lengths has to have come from something more than just mere coincidence. Certainly, these focused performances amid a bevy of failures in lesser races has to be superior to the consistent mediocrity that Giacomo displayed in his career.

But regardless, simply put, Sea Hero, speedfigure-wise, ran faster than Giacomo in their respective Derbies (105 BSF vs. 100 BSF).

And just for a little more pull in his favor, Sea Hero, in his best performance, won the '93 Travers over a deep field:

Kissin Kris- Belmont runner up, recent Haskell winner who later was 3rd in that year's BC Classic
Miner's Mark- Jim Dandy winner and subsequent winner of the Jockey Club Gold Cup
Cherokee Run- Preakness runner up, subsequent BC Sprint winner and champion
Devoted Brass- Swaps winner, later a winner in Saudi Arabia
Virginia Rapids- Peter Pan winner, subsequent Carter winner
Colonial Affair- Belmont winner, subsequent JCGC and Whitney winner

Giacomo, in his only subsequent win defeated Preachinatthebar and Papi Chullo.

Oh...and Rathor.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Anyone who wants to take a look at the pp's for Sea Hero can here.

http://www.drf.com/tc/kentuckyderby/...rbywinners.pdf

Keep in mind - his crop of 3yo's was brutally bad. Prarie Bayou had a much tougher trip than him and was clearly the better horse in the Derby.

Prarie Bayou, in fact, came back to win the Preakness with a 98 Beyer (by open lengths - or 8 points the slowest Preakness ever) Giacomo ran the same figure as PB did when he was a distant 3rd in the Preakness.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Keep in mind - his crop of 3yo's was brutally bad. Prarie Bayou had a much tougher trip than him and was clearly the better horse in the Derby.

Prarie Bayou, in fact, came back to win the Preakness with a 98 Beyer (by open lengths - or 8 points the slowest Preakness ever) Giacomo ran the same figure as PB did when he was a distant 3rd in the Preakness.

Great, is this Prairie Bayou vs. Giacomo or Sea Hero vs. Giacomo. And, aside form Afleet Alex, wasn't the '05 crop pathetic as well?

Here's Giacomo's pps:

http://www.drf.com/tc/kentuckyderby/...erbywinner.pdf

Based on this, Giacomo was slower than Sea Hero by at least 5 BSF points at both 2 and 3.

But he got the upper hand at 4th, with a mighty 3rd in the Goodwood (curious that Giacomo is lauded for somewhat overcoming a bias--remember he didn't win--yet is not downgraded for his perfect setup in the Derby) and a scorching 4th in the BC Classic.