Churchill to test scratch horses

[Storm Cadet]

Cannon...do trainers/vets just shotgun administer anti biotics without lab work on a ill horse?

I thought that trainers do blood lab work, check the white cell count and maybe culture before administering meds. So how does the scratch blood test program help if a trainer is waiting the results before administering?

Seems like they are not helping the health care of the horse in question if they are going to fine the trainer if NO antibiotics/anti inflammatory meds are found in the blood test by the track vet?

Instead of checking for med in the horses system...let the track vet draw blood and see what really is the sickness the horse has to see if it's a legit scratch. Elevated white count...good.....no elevated white count...fine of $250.00. That will stop the indiscriminate administering of medication. Crap...we keep giving the equine set antibiotics..we'll see superbug MRSA that doesn't respond to usual antibiotics in our stables soon!!!!!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

Cannon...do trainers/vets just shotgun administer anti biotics without lab work on a ill horse?

I thought that trainers do blood lab work, check the white cell count and maybe culture before administering meds. So how does the scratch blood test program help if a trainer is waiting the results before administering?

Seems like they are not helping the health care of the horse in question if they are going to fine the trainer if NO antibiotics/anti inflammatory meds are found in the blood test by the track vet?

Depends on what kind of sickness. If it looks like it is in the lungs, Baytril is usually the chioce before the bloodwork comes back.

They simply want to increase the number of starters per race. There is very little regard for much else. Bettors may think that is a good thing but if you are betting on borderline sick horses you wont. It is not like CD has many short fields.

[Storm Cadet]

So trainers/vets might give meds before the test come back? Anti biotics for viral symptoms which are similar to bacterial lung infections....

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

So trainers/vets might give meds before the test come back? Anti biotics for viral symptoms which are similar to bacterial lung infections....

Problem is that tests take awhile to come back in many cases.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

So trainers/vets might give meds before the test come back? Anti biotics for viral symptoms which are similar to bacterial lung infections....

if you culture a sample that means you take a swab from the suspected infection, wipe it in a growth medium, put the medium in a controlled environment...

and wait...


and wait...


you get the point.

if your spouse had an illness would you want the doctor to wait until he knew the specific problem before he administered a broad spectrum antibiotic?

[ELA]

To me, as an owner, this is a foolish idea. When I look at the book, talk about races to enter, etc. -- the situation is very, very fluid. A horse gets knocked off his feed, does something, it could be a blip on the radar screen or something else.

To me, it's worth it to "buy" time and get to a race I want to get to. If the forecast is rain, I certainly don't want to miss a spot where the race might come off and I can get into a 4 horse field. If I have a back-up spot, it's worth it for me.

Once again, I don't think this is the solution to get to the desired result.

Eric

[Bobby Fischer]

not the classiest move of all time by Churchill...

maybe they are really really smart and this is a babystep in a masterplan of improvement and change among the health and testing regulations of the sport!

[Storm Cadet]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

if you culture a sample that means you take a swab from the suspected infection, wipe it in a growth medium, put the medium in a controlled environment...

and wait...


and wait...


you get the point.

if your spouse had an illness would you want the doctor to wait until he knew the specific problem before he administered a broad spectrum antibiotic?

I'm in the medical field with a patient load of over 350 patients each day and YES...we don't prescribe anti biotics until we get a positive test. Nowadays we do in house strep and mono tests that take 5 minutes. We get cultures back in 24 hours. We will call in the script ONLY with a positive culture.

In case you have not been reading the papers lately, MRSA staph super bugs are spreading here exactly because broad spectrum meds are dispensed before a correct diagnosis is made. And IF broad spectrum meds are given and taken, then a blood test culture test 24-48 hours later is now void and not valid.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/antibiotics/FL00075

http://www.drgreene.org/body.cfm?id=...detail&ref=519

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/85910.php

http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/abstract/134/6/479

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

I'm in the medical field with a patient load of over 350 patients each day and YES...we don't prescribe anti biotics until we get a positive test. Nowadays we do in house strep and mono tests that take 5 minutes. We get cultures back in 24 hours. We will call in the script ONLY with a positive culture.

In case you have not been reading the papers lately, MRSA staph super bugs are spreading here exactly because broad spectrum meds are dispensed before a correct diagnosis is made. And IF broad spectrum meds are given and taken, then a blood test culture test 24-48 hours later is now void and not valid.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/antibiotics/FL00075

http://www.drgreene.org/body.cfm?id=...detail&ref=519

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/85910.php

so my 25 year old knowlege from working in a microbiology lab during college is out of date?

i guess i can live with that.

so long as i never have to smell that smell again.

[Riot]

As soon as you give banamine, the WBC count is depressed in about 4-6 hours (along with the fever).

Animals, fortunately, haven't developed much resistance to antibiotics so far. They do have a fear of catching staph (and could be a MDRS) from their human handlers' hands during wound care handling, etc. Culturing animals for URI isn't common, and radiographing lungs is very difficult. Even an animal on antibiotic can have a culture taken, and the results interpreted in light of the MIC and drug dose the animal has been on, so antibiotics doesn't preclude subsequent culture if required. And that doesn't even address viral stuff.

This is stupid. If a trainer wants to scratch a horse, who cares? Sometimes
an animal is just "off", and the trainer justifiably trusts their sixth sense about not running the animal, even if there is no fever, no cough, no WBC depression or elevation, etc.

Nobody has business ordering a trainer (via intimidation) to run their horse.

My impression is the racing secretary can make the life of a trainer miserable in the future if it's a bad trainer habit to scratch constantly anyway(Cannon?)

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

I'm in the medical field with a patient load of over 350 patients each day and YES...we don't prescribe anti biotics until we get a positive test. Nowadays we do in house strep and mono tests that take 5 minutes. We get cultures back in 24 hours. We will call in the script ONLY with a positive culture.

In case you have not been reading the papers lately, MRSA staph super bugs are spreading here exactly because broad spectrum meds are dispensed before a correct diagnosis is made. And IF broad spectrum meds are given and taken, then a blood test culture test 24-48 hours later is now void and not valid.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/antibiotics/FL00075

http://www.drgreene.org/body.cfm?id=...detail&ref=519

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/85910.php

http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/abstract/134/6/479

i took my kids to a pediatrician once, long ago....she said viral, here's a prescrip for antibiotics. the paper went in the trash along with her phone #. docs like her a part of the problem, another part are those who take part of their meds, feel better, rest goes on the shelf...dummies.

[MisterB]

Don't forget the one's that break down, they need to be tested too!

[justindew]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i took my kids to a pediatrician once, long ago....she said viral, here's a prescrip for antibiotics. the paper went in the trash along with her phone #. docs like her a part of the problem, another part are those who take part of their meds, feel better, rest goes on the shelf...dummies.

Antibiotics are prescribed for viral infections so the body can fight off other bacterial infections while the body is weakened from fighting the viral infection.

[Riot]

So trainers/vets might give meds before the test come back? Anti biotics for viral symptoms which are similar to bacterial lung infections...

I give antibiotics all the time without any bloodwork on dogs and cats as outpatients or inpatients in the ER. It's not "shotgunning" if done with sound reasoning based upon physical exam findings and knowledge of pathogens and pharmacology.

[docicu3]

Originally Posted by Riot

I give antibiotics all the time without any bloodwork on dogs and cats as outpatients or inpatients in the ER. It's not "shotgunning" if done with sound reasoning based upon physical exam findings and knowledge of pathogens and pharmacology.

So there is no MRSA or equivalent in the equine world??

[Riot]

So there is no MRSA or equivalent in the equine world??

Not really, although it's certainly something the veterinary world has kept a close eye on, obviously, due to what's happened in human medicine over the years.

There have been problems within some equine hospitals regarding nasty salmonella species, and some small animal hospitals have had environmentally-specific nosicomial infections that take attention and care to eradicate. But no super-super bugs have developed out of that yet, thank goodness.

I think it's probably because animals generally have different epidemiologic considerations than humans, fortunately, it is much more difficult for them to 1) spread antibiotic-resistent bugs around, as unlike humans they are not out and about exposing 20 or 100 others after having taken only half of their prescribed antibotic dose; 2) rarely do animals get prescribed antibotic in their lives compared to humans, 3) sick herd animals are more often euthanized than treated

The worse and most common veterinary antibiotic misuse in my experience has been (in referral patients) vets who have prescribed a variety of different antibiotics for an escalating non-responsive infection that is fungal; and repeated antibiotics prescribed for "urinary tract infections" that are not.

The very common canine skin staphs are still quite sensitive to the cephalosporins, and the derm world hasn't reported any resistence problems appearing yet.

Believe it or not, the way herdsmen (cattle) tend to throw antibiotic at anything with a runny discharge, and considering the use of antibiotic in swine and poultry operations, resistence hasn't developed (although what's in our food chain is another story).

That's all I can think of at the moment

[blackthroatedwind]

I respect Chuck's opinion as he obviously understands the physical aspect of this much better than I ever will, but I don't think that's the only issue here, and I for one am happy any time any racetrack seems to pay attention to the horseplayers' interests. The simple fact is that horseplayers waste an enormous amount of time handicapping races that end up completely different than the ones they originally analyzed. In NY, race after race gets significantly altered by late scratches, and the handicapping of claiming races in particular becomes superfluous until the late scratches are given. And, furthermore, the same trainers seem to scratch the most, and often this seems to be because the race does not set up well for their entrants. These scratched horses also show up in the very near future quite often. While I blame the racing office for carding similar opportunities for these scratched horses, I blame the trainers too, who show little to no regard, far too often, for the overall best interests of the game. Why should they be allowed to enter and then have the option of deciding if the race is too tough for their horse at the expense of the overall good of the game? When an eight horse race scratches down to five this is dramatically the case. Horseplayers are given a poor wagering opportunity, thus the handle suffers significantly, and everybody loses.

Nobody is suggesting that a trainer run an ailing horse, but we all know that this is quite often not the case with scratched horses, and perhaps a plan like this will minimize the problem horseplayers face with abundant scratches. I understand there are opposing views to this, and I could probably argue some of them as well, but to me the bottom line is that the game is much better overall when original fields remain intact......and when there's a sense that this will be the case on a consistent basis.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

Cannon...do trainers/vets just shotgun administer anti biotics without lab work on a ill horse?

I thought that trainers do blood lab work, check the white cell count and maybe culture before administering meds. So how does the scratch blood test program help if a trainer is waiting the results before administering?

Seems like they are not helping the health care of the horse in question if they are going to fine the trainer if NO antibiotics/anti inflammatory meds are found in the blood test by the track vet?

Instead of checking for med in the horses system...let the track vet draw blood and see what really is the sickness the horse has to see if it's a legit scratch. Elevated white count...good.....no elevated white count...fine of $250.00. That will stop the indiscriminate administering of medication. Crap...we keep giving the equine set antibiotics..we'll see superbug MRSA that doesn't respond to usual antibiotics in our stables soon!!!!!

just to add to what chuck said on this.....if a horse actually has a fever and maintains it for any length of time one would want to treat it with banamine and or bute (usually before test results have time to come back) because of the potential for other problems associated with high fever.