Not again ....

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Lidocaine doesn't give anyone any sort of racing advantage, and inadvertant overages happen every day of the week around this country, feel free to ask Nick Zito about it.

you're kidding right? lidocaine is a painkiller....ever had novocaine at the dentist? can't feel anything for hours.....I agree that accidental overages happen, but come on...anyone can see how this drug has potential abuse written all over it, which is why it has mandatory zero test limits.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

you're kidding right? lidocaine is a painkiller....ever had novocaine at the dentist? can't feel anything for hours.....I agree that accidental overages happen, but come on...anyone can see how this drug has potential abuse written all over it, which is why it has mandatory zero test limits.

Over 1100 starts this year, and this is the only infraction. Hardly what any sane person would consider "potential abuse". Pais, you're point is well taken -but the fact of the matter is that there are strings of horses at every track in NY, and teams of vets, vet assistants, etc. tending to them around the clock. Human error happens.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Over 1100 starts this year, and this is the only infraction.

No, this is at least Contessa's second suspension this year. When he was on the bench in July, the assistant's name at the time was Kim Laudati (see discussion above).

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

No, this is at least Contessa's second suspension this year. When he was on the bench in July, the assistant's name at the time was Kim Laudati (see discussion above).

That was bute, not lidocaine....I stand corrected 2 in 1100....Throw the bum out

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Over 1100 starts this year, and this is the only infraction. Hardly what any sane person would consider "potential abuse". Pais, you're point is well taken -but the fact of the matter is that there are strings of horses at every track in NY, and teams of vets, vet assistants, etc. tending to them around the clock. Human error happens.

I agree but why does it seem to happen over and over again in some of the same barns? surely if it was just 'human error' and it kept happening the caretakers would lose their jobs?

sorry if I can't buy that certain trainers just have staff problems....if that was the case they would have made changes so that they aren't serving multiple suspensions per year.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Human error happens.

Yes, that's true, but this gets to Cardus's point: how come the same individuals never seem to learn from their errors?

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Yes, that's true, but this gets to Cardus's point: how come the same individuals never seem to learn from their errors?

The "same individuals" saddle an expotential amount of mounts, with horses stabled around the country - relative to the others. It's not a matter of right or wrong, it is WRONG. Period.
Last year he saddled over 1500 mounts and had zero positives to my knowledge. Is he responsible? Absolutely. If a horse ships in from the SPA training track to AQU and tests positive, even if he personally hasn't seen the horse until race day, he is held accountable. It is his responsibility to take action with his staff to prevent it from happening again, but He ultimately pays the price. Which is fair and right.

I take issue with the fact that there are a couple of trainers that get away with murder because they "never learn"and "Get away with it" . I doubt they personally had anything at all to do with it, frankly. And more to the point, what kind of a trainer would purposely risk a very potential breakdown by knowingly violating the rules regarding lido/bute? Do you honestly believe any trainer would be in business tomorrow if that were the case? Would you give your horse to someone with that rep? I doubt it.

[ELA]

Same issue, same problem and unfortunately, never the same solution. Absent of zero tolerance, there is no universal solution -- not on the regulatory side, nor on the self-governing or self-policing side vis a vis the owners in this industry.

Regardless, you are not going have trainers given lifetime suspensions for a second or third offense of a legal drug that has therapeutic, everyday use on the backstretch. Period. Not only does it not happen, personally, I don't think it should. You want to talk about snake venom, designer or exotic drugs that have zero therapeutic use, steroids, etc. -- OK, great, I am all for it -- however, that is a different discussion as far as I am concerned, a very different one.

In addition, there is an entirely different dimension to this problem. Many people here critisize others -- others who don't live up to, or abide by the standards they themselves claim they would adhere to. That's fine. It's easy to be a critic. Let's see how much that changes the industry. That will never be the standard in the industry.

If you are in this game, and you run your business that way -- great, I don't think anyone should have a problem with that, nor should they care. And, Terry Finley runs his business the way he runs it, as does Jess Jackson, Satish Sanan, Cot Campbell, Coolmore, Barry Irwin, and the guy who owns the nickel claimer at Penn National. Everyone is entitled to run their business anyway they want. You don't like it -- OK, your entitled.

However, that is not going to be governing standard for the industry. Can self-policing work? In some ideal world, perhaps. In practical application, reality, I don't think so. There certainly needs to be change, drastic change, and I've supported that for years. I've contributed time, efforts, money, resources, and more to change in this business and in this sport. I've been in this game my entire adult life. I love this game. But change can go in different directions.

BTW, in this case -- postive test -- gulity! Gary will do his time, pay his fine and he'll come back. He is, should be and must be held accountable.

Eric

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by ELA

Same issue, same problem and unfortunately, never the same solution. Absent of zero tolerance, there is no universal solution -- not on the regulatory side, nor on the self-governing or self-policing side vis a vis the owners in this industry.

Regardless, you are not going have trainers given lifetime suspensions for a second or third offense of a legal drug that has therapeutic, everyday use on the backstretch. Period. Not only does it not happen, personally, I don't think it should. You want to talk about snake venom, designer or exotic drugs that have zero therapeutic use, steroids, etc. -- OK, great, I am all for it -- however, that is a different discussion as far as I am concerned, a very different one.

In addition, there is an entirely different dimension to this problem. Many people here critisize others -- others who don't live up to, or abide by the standards they themselves claim they would adhere to. That's fine. It's easy to be a critic. Let's see how much that changes the industry. That will never be the standard in the industry.

If you are in this game, and you run your business that way -- great, I don't think anyone should have a problem with that, nor should they care. And, Terry Finley runs his business the way he runs it, as does Jess Jackson, Satish Sanan, Cot Campbell, Coolmore, Barry Irwin, and the guy who owns the nickel claimer at Penn National. Everyone is entitled to run their business anyway they want. You don't like it -- OK, your entitled.

However, that is not going to be governing standard for the industry. Can self-policing work? In some ideal world, perhaps. In practical application, reality, I don't think so. There certainly needs to be change, drastic change, and I've supported that for years. I've contributed time, efforts, money, resources, and more to change in this business and in this sport. I've been in this game my entire adult life. I love this game. But change can go in different directions.

BTW, in this case -- postive test -- gulity! Gary will do his time, pay his fine and he'll come back. He is, should be and must be held accountable.

Eric

Exactly. Well Done, Eric.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Is lidocaine theraputic? If it numbs pain that allows a horse to run through it, when he/she is otherwise unaware of pain that would preclude a horse from giving his/her all, doesn't that make it performance enhancing?

I asked, and I've been told it's a legal drug to have on the vet's truck, it has everyday use and it's cosidered to be therapuetic in nature. I don't know if that's subject to interpretation or not.

I would think that if it wasn't therapeutic, it would have a more severe classification, stronger penalty, fine, etc. and we wouldn't be looking at 15 days or something of the like. Maybe one of the resident vets or trainers can shed light on this.

Eric

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ELA

I asked, and I've been told it's a legal drug to have on the vet's truck, it has everyday use and it's cosidered to be therapuetic in nature. I don't know if that's subject to interpretation or not.

I would think that if it wasn't therapeutic, it would have a more severe classification, stronger penalty, fine, etc. and we wouldn't be looking at 15 days or something of the like. Maybe one of the resident vets or trainers can shed light on this.

Eric

I'm sure many people who have participated on this thread have come into contact with lidocaine at some point. While it could be used as a nerve blocking agent in high doses it is commonly associated with hand lotion and other over the counter pain relieving cremes. Since he got a short suspension I am assuming that the levels found were very low. Steve Penrod, who is about as far away from a 'juice' trainer as there is, served a 30 day suspension in KY a few years ago because his groom bought an over the counter 'aloe' lotion to treat a horses cracked heels. At the time the rules in KY said 30 min for Lidocaine regardless of level even though they knew why it happened.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Pain relieving creams for animals, or for people? Can you name a pain relieving over-the-counter cream for people with lidocaine?

benadryl cream...for bug bites...I could name a bunch but that's just one.

not that I think Contessa or any other trainer is getting his postives from those kinds of contamination.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Can you name a pain relieving over-the-counter cream for people with lidocaine?

Bactine, Lanacane, Solarcaine and practically every aloe based sunburn remedy, ect. there are many.

[sumitas]

ummm from the Hillary school of debating ?

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Eric,

I do not understand the "it's easy to be a critic" tack here. Why is it so hard to understand that some people would not subject his horse to something that, perhaps not illlegal, is not in the horse's best interest? I'm certain that I would not operate in the same alleged way as those owners listed above.

Please clarify the "Everybody is entitled their business the way they want" line. Does that mean that owners can operate as they want within or without the rules? I don't think that you mean that, but that's how it came across.

No, of course it didn't mean that. Come on now, be reasonable.

The critic tack is in my mind part of the problem. Some people wouldn't subject a horse to something . . . OK. I'll buy that. And some will. Period. That is almost, in today's environment, a moot discussion. What isn't moot are the rules, or lack thereof. That's what matters.

This is also a circular discussion. If someone doesn't like the fact that Jess Jackson, who speaks for integrity in the game, has chosen Steve Assmusen as a trainer -- let them boycott his operation. Don't board your mares at his farm, don't visit his consignment or buy horses from there, and so on. Anything else? Boycott the states that don't have rules to our satisfaction? Don't bet on the horses? Where is this conversation going?

If someone doesn't like the way Jess Jackson runs his business -- what are they going to do about it? Not buy his wine? Or were we talking about horses here?

Change will in fact come from within. I just don't think it will come in the fashion talked about here.

Eric

[ELA]

I don't have a problem with anyone responding. Not at all. I wouldn't enter that arguement, and I never critisize those who do.

In this situation, I think it's pretty simple. Drug, medication, call it whatever you want. There's a rule. A Contessa trained horse came up positive, which is a violation of the rule. There is a trainer responsibility rule. There is a stipulated fine and penalty. He'll pay and serve.

Interesting thought process here though Cardus. Think about this a bit. How many people here at this BB have noticed or commented on how Contessa's results, stats, performance, wins, etc. have gone up over the recent years? Call it X years. How many people here will say it's because he's got something, or got something better, found something, got a new vet, changed the program, or some other rhetoric? Certainly since the rise I refer to, I've read more "juice trainer" comments attributable to him. I've certainly read more criticisms about Contessa.

My point? The same point I made when people said Mott was super-hot at the Spa and started out horribly at Belmont, and now at Aqueduct he's what? 0 for what? Too many people were "looking for reasons" and making a lot of comments. Point being -- there is more, often more to what meets the eye, the limited eye, the eye that often looks to and for negativity and to critisize.

I guess that's the tone of this place, the media and the industry at large. I wonder why we all stick around then, LOL.

Good night all.

Eric

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by merasmag

i will boycott jackson/kendall if i think he's hurtin his horses...and i take it u wouldn't...may i ask how old u r?

I would not say this about many people but this may hurt Jackson

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I would not say this about many people but this may hurt Jackson

this deserves pies......OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Yes, that's true, but this gets to Cardus's point: how come the same individuals never seem to learn from their errors?

because there's no oversight. the industry polices itself, poorly.
asmussen is a mention for the eclipse for trainer. perfect example right there. 20-some drug positives, just came off a six month suspension, but everyone loves a winner, right? when's the last time anyone mentioned his six month 'vacation'? not since that big preakness win as far as i know...

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Danzig

because there's no oversight. the industry polices itself, poorly.
asmussen is a mention for the eclipse for trainer. perfect example right there. 20-some drug positives, just came off a six month suspension, but everyone loves a winner, right? when's the last time anyone mentioned his six month 'vacation'? not since that big preakness win as far as i know...

You know, that's a very interesting point; very thought provoking.

Is it the industry's responsibility to police or govern itself? Is this the case in other sports? Rhetorical question, as this sport is very different than others. However, should it be the industry's responsibility to govern and police itself -- because the goeverning bodies can't?

Eric