Which (if any) 3-yr-olds will run next year?

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

And because of the big $$ involved, the racing industry won't do the most obvious thing to keep the stars running- regulate the breeding industry. Requiring the stud horse to be at least 5 years old is no less arbitrary than requiring the matings to be natural covers. But requiring natural covers drives up stud fees, while making horses reach 5 before breeding would result in a lot of precocious but unsound 2-year-olds being forgotten after they get injured and retired to replicate their unsoundness.

Wow! I've never heard anyone express that idea besides me. Thank you!

As you note, it's entirely possible for the breeding industry to be regulated in the interest of the overall horseracing business. Breeders would take a minor hit. They would lose one year out of a horse's, what, 12-17 year breeding life? As compensation for that, we'd see horses that become stars, like Street Sense, hang around another year. We might have seen Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex run another year.

In every other sport, the stars try to hang around as long as they can. That helps create fans. People relate to familiar names. In horseracing, as soon as a horse's name cracks the general public's radar, that horse is gone from the scene.

As it is now run, I see the breeding business as a giant pyramid scheme. Breeding costs are very high, despite the fact that few offspring will amount to much. As soon as any offspring shows promise, it, too, is whisked off to the shed to create another pyramid of its own. Because of the economics, breeders are breeding future breeders, not racehorses.

Maybe when there are 100 people/day coming to Santa Anita and Belmont, the industry will realize it has to take the step of prohibiting breeding with any stallion until it is at least 5 years old.

One of my two local papers did not have ANY coverage of the Breeder's Cup in today's paper. That's how large the BC is in the mind of some sports editors.

--Dunbar

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Wow! I've never heard anyone express that idea besides me. Thank you!

As you note, it's entirely possible for the breeding industry to be regulated in the interest of the overall horseracing business. Breeders would take a minor hit. They would lose one year out of a horse's, what, 12-17 year breeding life? As compensation for that, we'd see horses that become stars, like Street Sense, hang around another year. We might have seen Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex run another year.

In every other sport, the stars try to hang around as long as they can. That helps create fans. People relate to familiar names. In horseracing, as soon as a horse's name cracks the general public's radar, that horse is gone from the scene.

As it is now run, I see the breeding business as a giant pyramid scheme. Breeding costs are very high, despite the fact that few offspring will amount to much. As soon as any offspring shows promise, it, too, is whisked off to the shed to create another pyramid of its own. Because of the economics, breeders are breeding future breeders, not racehorses.

Maybe when there are 100 people/day coming to Santa Anita and Belmont, the industry will realize it has to take the step of prohibiting breeding with any stallion until it is at least 5 years old.

One of my two local papers did not have ANY coverage of the Breeder's Cup in today's paper. That's how large the BC is in the mind of some sports editors.

--Dunbar

While agree that it would be nice if horses raced longer the idea that the game will somehow be revived if a few of the big horses run at 3 is just not true.
1st problem - The greater the chance of a popular horse having an untimely ending which does far more to hurt the game than one staying in training and running does to help it. Making anything mandatory will always make people make questionable decisions especially when so much money is involved. The truth is that I am sure that you can get a much lower insurance rate if a horse is not in training and some may retire and sit the year out anyway. Or run in the Dubai race then retire.
2nd Problem - Racing fans are going to watch the big events regardless. New fans may not know who the hell is running anyway. Beside a few big days a year, it is not like the horses will run much anyway. Racings problem is that it needs new fans that bet, not just new fans.
3rd Problem - See recent campaigns of Funny Cide

[Danzig]

the breeding industry has got to self correct. read the other day in bh that altho keeneland sales were a 'success', only 1/4 of the breeders made back their money. obviously that can't continue. over the last few months, there have been some saying they are going to a lower priced stallion, as the prices aren't going thru the roof like in years past. and of course coolmore vs darley has some effect on that--for a few breeders. most of course never have the opportunity to have one of theirs get the attention of the biggest guns.
darley grabbed a few headlines due to their purchases of some of the top three year olds, but i think overall that the market is turning downward.

The problem is that I like watching horses run, not waiting for their offspring.
Each horse is an individual, not a descendant of some horse who won a Grade I race.

Therefore I hope Street Sense, as well as Smarty Jones, Bernardini, etc... are absolute duds in the shed. I hope all their offspring make great riding ponies and are happy doing so.

I like watching athletes perform. I really liked watching Street Sense ride the rail with Borel aboard. He made races interesting. He was fun to watch. I would look forward to races he was in.

But racing is not about people who like watching athletes compete.
Which is the purest form of sports pleasure, apologies to the serious
handicappers, breeders, pinhookers, hookers, etc...

[ALostTexan]

I will always root for the gelding in the Derby. If there has to be a TC Winner, I hope they are a gelding...

Originally Posted by merasmag

your logic is more convoluted than most but my little mind unraveled it to the point to say you haven't thought your somewhat smug conclusion to it's rightful end...i am paying street sense's bills, and others here a lot more than i...u might be watching kobe or whoever for free but who's paying 200 bucks a seat for those college games you're such an expert at? u are living on everyone else's dime unless u have a s-load of bc apparel in your closet

Those 200 dollar seats at college games are miniscule compared to what TV networks pay the NCAA to broadcast those games. Thus the advertisers are obviously making bucks off the consumer settin in her big chair at home drinking large amounts of the High Life. Get real magma.

And you very well might be paying more of Street Sense's bill. Which is why your computer speaks Japanese to you.

Originally Posted by merasmag

that was the old computer, which i, along with the brilliant macncheese half a world away, taught fluent english in less than 3 days..my fourth one is this litle laptop puppy which u will regret my having wireless capability on sometime by derby 2012, and

don't degrade yourself by goin down to the pillowhead level, i guarantee you i have put more into the industry this summer than you have in your life, not even countin paying extra for tvg...

i think your tv argument would make more sense re nascar fans; the ncaa, nfl, mlb etc all have much more $ than the nyra will ever have, even if they finally wised up and got a national horseracing authority like they should (but maybe i should be a little careful what i wish for there)...

i somehow doubt you watching the bc, or the derby for that matter, on tv without putting any money into it except ordering a pizza made pizza hut decide to pay more for the broadcast rights

Magma do you go to the track?
Do you actually go to the track and bet?

I think I might actually put more into Street Sense's coffers than you do wagering at some maggot infested OTB. Get ye to Arlington or Hawthorne and then talk to me.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

While agree that it would be nice if horses raced longer the idea that the game will somehow be revived if a few of the big horses run at 3 is just not true.
1st problem - The greater the chance of a popular horse having an untimely ending which does far more to hurt the game than one staying in training and running does to help it. Making anything mandatory will always make people make questionable decisions especially when so much money is involved. The truth is that I am sure that you can get a much lower insurance rate if a horse is not in training and some may retire and sit the year out anyway. Or run in the Dubai race then retire.
2nd Problem - Racing fans are going to watch the big events regardless. New fans may not know who the hell is running anyway. Beside a few big days a year, it is not like the horses will run much anyway. Racings problem is that it needs new fans that bet, not just new fans.
3rd Problem - See recent campaigns of Funny Cide

I think the GW situation yesterday makes it even more difficult for in-demand 3YO potential studs to return to the track.

On that note... while I have no idea what defines a catastrophic injury, it happened right in front of us, and I don't know why they didn't make any effort to stabilize the foot and try to save him. It almost seems like Coolmore didn't WANT to save him... maybe I'm being pessimistic, who knows.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by philcski

I think the GW situation yesterday makes it even more difficult for in-demand 3YO potential studs to return to the track.

On that note... while I have no idea what defines a catastrophic injury, it happened right in front of us, and I don't know why they didn't make any effort to stabilize the foot and try to save him. It almost seems like Coolmore didn't WANT to save him... maybe I'm being pessimistic, who knows.

If what was said was true there is no chance of recovery...multiple fractures to sesamoids and conjular to cannon with open wound.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by philcski

I think the GW situation yesterday makes it even more difficult for in-demand 3YO potential studs to return to the track.

On that note... while I have no idea what defines a catastrophic injury, it happened right in front of us, and I don't know why they didn't make any effort to stabilize the foot and try to save him. It almost seems like Coolmore didn't WANT to save him... maybe I'm being pessimistic, who knows.

open wound means infection, don't forget that barbaro suffered from a massive infection, and he did not have an open wound when he broke down.
also, because of the dislocation, the blood supply was cut off. that is the worst thing that can happen, as there is no chance once the supply is gone.

[SniperSB23]

Curlin winning was probably worst case for 3yos returning next year. Street Sense and Hard Spun were already gone so it wouldn't have mattered if they won. By Curlin winning they are now considering retiring him which likely wouldn't have been the case had he lost.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Curlin winning was probably worst case for 3yos returning next year. Street Sense and Hard Spun were already gone so it wouldn't have mattered if they won. By Curlin winning they are now considering retiring him which likely wouldn't have been the case had he lost.

Good point. That's sort of a Catch-22. If he loses, we get him back, but then maybe he's not all that great and the attraction of having him back isn't that great. Having won the BC Classic, we'd REALLY like to see him back next year, but maybe now he gets retired.

We're left rooting against all the really good ones winning so that they won't retire them!

--Dunbar

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Danzig

open wound means infection, don't forget that barbaro suffered from a massive infection, and he did not have an open wound when he broke down.
also, because of the dislocation, the blood supply was cut off. that is the worst thing that can happen, as there is no chance once the supply is gone.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If what was said was true there is no chance of recovery...multiple fractures to sesamoids and conjular to cannon with open wound.

I stand corrected then, it was most definitely dislocated. I hope ESPN did their best to avoid showing it, it was very ugly.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

While agree that it would be nice if horses raced longer the idea that the game will somehow be revived if a few of the big horses run at 3 is just not true.
1st problem - The greater the chance of a popular horse having an untimely ending which does far more to hurt the game than one staying in training and running does to help it. Making anything mandatory will always make people make questionable decisions especially when so much money is involved. The truth is that I am sure that you can get a much lower insurance rate if a horse is not in training and some may retire and sit the year out anyway. Or run in the Dubai race then retire.

Good point about the risk of the untimely ending, but I don't agree with your conclusion. Anguish is part of the game. The Barbaro saga did nothing to hurt horseracing. Horseracing got more good press that year than any year in the past 20.

You may be right about some owners sitting out rather than paying higher insurance, but I'm skeptical of that.

2nd Problem - Racing fans are going to watch the big events regardless. New fans may not know who the hell is running anyway. Beside a few big days a year, it is not like the horses will run much anyway. Racings problem is that it needs new fans that bet, not just new fans.

I'd certainly agree that keeping horses in training isn't going to single-handedly solve all the problems. But I do think a fan base is important, and it's not easy to have a fan base in a sport where the stars disappear as soon as they become familiar.

3rd Problem - See recent campaigns of Funny Cide

Didn't Funny Cide bring fans and attention to Finger Lakes when he ran his swan song race? Of course it would have helped if Funny Cide had raced at his earlier level a la Kelso or John Henry. But even with his diminished talent, he was a popular draw.

Anyway, as always I appreciate and respect your thoughts.

--Dunbar

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Good point about the risk of the untimely ending, but I don't agree with your conclusion. Anguish is part of the game. The Barbaro saga did nothing to hurt horseracing. Horseracing got more good press that year than any year in the past 20.

You may be right about some owners sitting out rather than paying higher insurance, but I'm skeptical of that.



I'd certainly agree that keeping horses in training isn't going to single-handedly solve all the problems. But I do think a fan base is important, and it's not easy to have a fan base in a sport where the stars disappear as soon as they become familiar.



Didn't Funny Cide bring fans and attention to Finger Lakes when he ran his swan song race? Of course it would have helped if Funny Cide had raced at his earlier level a la Kelso or John Henry. But even with his diminished talent, he was a popular draw.

Anyway, as always I appreciate and respect your thoughts.

--Dunbar

You are not suggesting that breakdowns are good or beneficial are you?

Fan base of betting customers is important...regular fans are not. Sorry but if you just just watch the sport and dont bet or participate you are really not important. Unlike other sports which have tv contracts that pay big bucks, ticket sales income and merchandising, all of which a regular fan will partake in, we only have betting as a revenue source. So if you dont bet, why should the industry care about you? You as a nonbetter or owner are not adding to the sport in any manner.It is one of the biggest problems that the industry faces is that its leaders for so long tried to sweep the gambling aspect under the rug instead of promoting it. Even now they hire marketing people who seemingly fail to understand the demographic that they should be going after.


If Funny Cide was a colt, what would he have been worth after the Triple Crown? $25 or 30 million?
If Funny Cide were a colt and campaigned for 2 more years with the same results, what would he be worth as a 5 year old? $5 million?

You do the math.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You are not suggesting that breakdowns are good or beneficial are you?

I'm saying that the spector of a breakdown is not a reason to rush a healthy horse off to the breeding shed. And I'm saying that Barbaro's breakdown brought the sport more positive press than any other event of the last 20 years.

In general, I don't think the occasional loss of a top horse to a breakdown will hurt the sport enough to offset the benefit of keeping the stars in training.

Fan base of betting customers is important...regular fans are not. Sorry but if you just just watch the sport and dont bet or participate you are really not important. Unlike other sports which have tv contracts that pay big bucks, ticket sales income and merchandising, all of which a regular fan will partake in, we only have betting as a revenue source. So if you dont bet, why should the industry care about you? You as a nonbetter or owner are not adding to the sport in any manner.It is one of the biggest problems that the industry faces is that its leaders for so long tried to sweep the gambling aspect under the rug instead of promoting it. Even now they hire marketing people who seemingly fail to understand the demographic that they should be going after.

I agree with some of this. But I don't know how you distinguish the fans that end up being bettors from the fans that are simply fans. I was a fan from the time I was a kid, but didn't start seriously betting the horses until maybe 15 years ago. I'm one of the very few sports bettors I know who also bets horses.

In my mind, the industry should work on establishing a fan base. The betting fans will emerge from that fan base fairly naturally.

You are also ignoring the impact that a larger fan base would have on TV revenues. The current viewership of broadcast racing is a joke.

If Funny Cide was a colt, what would he have been worth after the Triple Crown? $25 or 30 million?
If Funny Cide were a colt and campaigned for 2 more years with the same results, what would he be worth as a 5 year old? $5 million?

You do the math.

Okay, here's the math. I assume in most cases a deal would be cut at some point during the 3-yr-old year. Deals were cut with Street Sense and Hard Spun earlier this year before they finished racing. There's no reason that a deal couldn't be cut that includes another year of racing. Yes, the deal would be for less than what would be offered for immediate breeding. But I don't think it would be hugely less. And under the idea that Genuine Risk and I put forward, there would be no alternative but to wait anyway.

--Dunbar

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

I'm saying that the spector of a breakdown is not a reason to rush a healthy horse off to the breeding shed. And I'm saying that Barbaro's breakdown brought the sport more positive press than any other event of the last 20 years.

In general, I don't think the occasional loss of a top horse to a breakdown will hurt the sport enough to offset the benefit of keeping the stars in training.



I agree with some of this. But I don't know how you distinguish the fans that end up being bettors from the fans that are simply fans. I was a fan from the time I was a kid, but didn't start seriously betting the horses until maybe 15 years ago. I'm one of the very few sports bettors I know who also bets horses.

In my mind, the industry should work on establishing a fan base. The betting fans will emerge from that fan base fairly naturally.

You are also ignoring the impact that a larger fan base would have on TV revenues. The current viewership of broadcast racing is a joke.



Okay, here's the math. I assume in most cases a deal would be cut at some point during the 3-yr-old year. Deals were cut with Street Sense and Hard Spun earlier this year before they finished racing. There's no reason that a deal couldn't be cut that includes another year of racing. Yes, the deal would be for less than what would be offered for immediate breeding. But I don't think it would be hugely less. And under the idea that Genuine Risk and I put forward, there would be no alternative but to wait anyway.

--Dunbar

Barbaro's story while unique in its effects will be the exception rather than the rule. If GW had been Street Sense the outcry in the US would be much more severe. We as an industry have no way to defend or spin breakdowns that will be acceptable to the general public. The more the public gets familar and attached to a horse the worse the kickback will be if there is a tragedy associated with him.

Almost every sports gambler that I know plays horses but maybe I am the exception to the rule because of where I live and where i grew up.


The farms will not allow their investments to contine to run and possibly decrease in value. Once a horse reaches a peak value there is no reason to risk them losing that value especially considering insurance premiums. If they sit out a year they sit out a year. Plus if other jurisdictions dont adopt the same rules what keeps them from shuttling them elsewhere until they are 5?

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Plus if other jurisdictions dont adopt the same rules what keeps them from shuttling them elsewhere until they are 5?

Seems to me if you didn't allow any horses to race in the country that were offspring of stallions under five and didn't allow any horses to stand here if they stood in another country before they turned five that it would decrease the stallion prospect enough in value to not make much sense for the majority of stallion prospects to stand elsewhere for that one year.