Barclay Tagg's comments on NoBiz - Page 4

SniperSB23 · #61 10-10-2007, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoLuvForPletch

What is wrong with the 102 beyer he earned under a hand ride on Saturday?

Don't get too caught up in the hand ride aspect of a race with extremely fast finishing fractions. The fast final fractions means it was extremely unlikely he would have gone any faster under urging.

miraja2 · #62 10-10-2007, 03:45 PM

Well in a couple of years we won't have this problem because there will probably be a 9f turf race for 3YOs that will be considered a BC race. Maybe there will even be a special BC race restricted to Albert the Great's offspring.
Once they decide that they need to expand the Breeders Cup to 70 different races contested over an entire week, all of these problems will be eliminated.

#63 10-10-2007, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoLuvForPletch

Who care's what you think he would stand for right now? Last time I checked he'll be racing next month. He's a 3 YO for Christmas sake. Not every has "has done enough" by the summer of their sophomore season. Everybody screams and cries about horses retiring early (Hard Spun, Street Sense, Any Given Saturday, etc...) just let him be and enjoy him. He's run 3 times on turf and has won 2 grade 2's and a grade 3. Maybe he will turn into a nice sound grass horse that we can have around for a few years. You can worry about how much he'll fetch after he accomplishes something worth discussing.

What is wrong with the 102 beyer he earned under a hand ride on Saturday?

He is coming back next year in part because he has no choice. There is no way he could fill a book. As for his 102 beyer, it fits perfectly for what he is. A horse that is a notch below the top horses. Combine that with his average pedigree and he is worth little at stud. It is just hilarious how much hype this horse gets. He is the product of a trainer that knows how to place his horses. A solid horse on dirt and turf. Nothing more.

miraja2 · #64 10-10-2007, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benevolus

It is just hilarious how much hype this horse gets. He is the product of a trainer that knows how to place his horses. A solid horse on dirt and turf. Nothing more.

Does he really get a lot of hype? He typically doesn't on this board.

SniperSB23 · #65 10-10-2007, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benevolus

He is coming back next year in part because he has no choice. There is no way he could fill a book. As for his 102 beyer, it fits perfectly for what he is. A horse that is a notch below the top horses. Combine that with his average pedigree and he is worth little at stud. It is just hilarious how much hype this horse gets. He is the product of a trainer that knows how to place his horses. A solid horse on dirt and turf. Nothing more.

I felt the same way until the Jamaica. He showed me there that he may turn out to be a very good horse on the turf. We will have to wait and see.

King Glorious · #66 10-10-2007, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It is foolish because there are much better alternatives. If they run in a BC race he clearly should be in the Mile. The BC Turf is probably the second choice. However, Tagg, who is one of the great trainers in the game, has said he is pointing to the Grade 1 Hollywood Derby. He isn't leaving this horse in the barn, and never has, but instead has picked one good spot for him after another. Yet, somehow people here apparently know better than he does where and when he should run the horse.

I'm not saying where he SHOULD run his horse or when. I'm only saying that I don't think the Classic as a thought, is a stupid one. I'm not sure that I believe that the Mile is clearly his best race if he were to be in the BC. The horse has won six stakes in his career and all but one have been at 9f. I'd have more confidence in him competing in the Classic than dropping down to compete in the Mile. Not much more confident but a little more.

Of course, I know that Tagg is much better suited to charting a course for his horse than I am. I'm not stupid. If he feels the Hollywood Derby is the better spot for him, then by all means go there. But I do think that if he's not totally closing the door on the BC, the Classic is worth considering.

brianwspencer · #67 10-10-2007, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

People complain about the small fields in the big races these days but then when we have a horse that could likely be one of the five or six best horses in the race, for the $5 million BC Classic, people are saying it's stupid to consider him.

If speed figures mean absolutely anything, then considering him "one of the best five or six horses in the race" would seem to be a magnificient stretch for just about anyone.

On paper, Student Council is only about a length slower than Nobiz on the dirt.

If by "best five or six," you meant "slowest two or three" then yea, I totally agree.

If he went, you could at least hope for a field of eight...that way you couldn't lose on either account.

NoLuvForPletch · #68 10-10-2007, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benevolus

He is coming back next year in part because he has no choice. There is no way he could fill a book. As for his 102 beyer, it fits perfectly for what he is. A horse that is a notch below the top horses. Combine that with his average pedigree and he is worth little at stud. It is just hilarious how much hype this horse gets. He is the product of a trainer that knows how to place his horses. A solid horse on dirt and turf. Nothing more.

So am I to assume that horses don't mature in your world after 3? How about if he is still learning? Is that a possibility? Castellano had to yank him to the outside pretty hard, what happens when he figures it ALL out and gets there on his own? What has this horse done to make people dislike him so much?

King Glorious · #69 10-10-2007, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

If speed figures mean absolutely anything, then considering him "one of the best five or six horses in the race" would seem to be a magnificient stretch for just about anyone.

On paper, Student Council is only about a length slower than Nobiz on the dirt.

If by "best five or six," you meant "slowest two or three" then yea, I totally agree.

If he went, you could at least hope for a field of eight...that way you couldn't lose on either account.

After you get past Curlin, Street Sense, Any Given Saturday, Lawyer Ron and Hard Spun, tell me which other horses that are pointed to the race outclass Nobiz from a speed figure perspective?

#70 10-10-2007, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardus

I don't think that Haskin is clueless, and I enjoy his enthusiasm, which comes across so clearly in his writing.

He is wrong in this case -- and you agree -- and I think it would be interesting if "SteveHaskin" explained his comment in this venue.

True. He is not clueless. I should have said he was clueless on this issue. Nobody can take a guy seriously that said what he said about Nobiz. There are horses running today like Crossing the Line and his stablemate Showing Up (both with injuries now) that have much quicker turns of foot. I don't even think he has a quicker turn of foot than horses like Sunriver or After Market. He just ran on a turf course that is currently as hard as concrete.

I still have no idea why guys like Haskin love this horse so much. Must be the free dinners or something he is getting from the guys who stand Albert the Great. LOL. Although those guys do spend quite a bit advertising on the horse, which makes me wonder.

#71 10-10-2007, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

After you get past Curlin, Street Sense, Any Given Saturday, Lawyer Ron and Hard Spun, tell me which other horses that are pointed to the race outclass Nobiz from a speed figure perspective?

A bunch of horses, many who aren't going because they are too slow. Horses like Fairbanks, Master Command, Grasshopper, Political Force, etc. Nobiz is a 100 beyer type horse. There is nothing special about him on dirt. Maybe he will turn out to be a great turf horse, although doubtful, but he just is not a Breeders Cup Classic horse. I don't even think he could win a race like the Clark.

brianwspencer · #72 10-10-2007, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

After you get past Curlin, Street Sense, Any Given Saturday, Lawyer Ron and Hard Spun, tell me which other horses that are pointed to the race outclass Nobiz from a speed figure perspective?

Tiago is faster on paper. Diamond Stripes is faster on paper.

Heck, if Zanjero were to go, he would even be up to giving Nobiz fits in the fight for 8th given his recent form.

Throw in the fact that at a mile and a quarter, Student Council is even arguably faster than Nobiz (considering that Student Council's mile and a quarter numbers of late are essentially within a length to a length and a half of Nobiz's top dirt races at any distance), it looks like you're left with maybe Awesome Gem being slower than Nobiz.

It's a moot point considering that Nobiz is not going, but if he were, at this time it would appear that nearly all of the probables for the race are faster than he is -- especially going a mile and quarter.

That's nine I can count, just off the top of my head.

Indian Charlie · #73 10-10-2007, 04:44 PM

the most absurd thing is that there is a thread discussing slobiz that has gone on for at least four pages now.

personally, i think the storm cat filly that won the turf stakes the other day at belmont is more appealing!

hoovesupsideyourhead · #74 10-10-2007, 04:49 PM

lest we forget great hunter .bwanna bull,imawildandcrazy guy... wondering boy..who i think would love monmouth

KY_Sasquash · #75 10-10-2007, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It is foolish because there are much better alternatives. If they run in a BC race he clearly should be in the Mile. The BC Turf is probably the second choice. However, Tagg, who is one of the great trainers in the game, has said he is pointing to the Grade 1 Hollywood Derby. He isn't leaving this horse in the barn, and never has, but instead has picked one good spot for him after another. Yet, somehow people here apparently know better than he does where and when he should run the horse.

I agree Tagg is a great trainer and nowhere am I telling Tagg how to train his horse. I was merely stating an opinion that as a fan would like to see him run in the Classic. None on the top contenders look like Ghostzapper to me. The race could be run 5 times and there could 5 different winners b/c the top contenders are pretty equal so I dont think it would be the craziest idea.

brianwspencer · #76 10-10-2007, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KY_Sasquash

I agree Tagg is a great trainer and nowhere am I telling Tagg how to train his horse. I was merely stating an opinion that as a fan would like to see him run in the Classic. None on the top contenders look like Ghostzapper to me. The race could be run 5 times and there could 5 different winners b/c the top contenders are pretty equal so I dont think it would be the craziest idea.

But he still wouldn't be one of them.

King Glorious · #77 10-10-2007, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Tiago is faster on paper. Diamond Stripes is faster on paper.

Heck, if Zanjero were to go, he would even be up to giving Nobiz fits in the fight for 8th given his recent form.

Throw in the fact that at a mile and a quarter, Student Council is even arguably faster than Nobiz (considering that Student Council's mile and a quarter numbers of late are essentially within a length to a length and a half of Nobiz's top dirt races at any distance), it looks like you're left with maybe Awesome Gem being slower than Nobiz.

It's a moot point considering that Nobiz is not going, but if he were, at this time it would appear that nearly all of the probables for the race are faster than he is -- especially going a mile and quarter.

That's nine I can count, just off the top of my head.

OK so Diamond Stripes just came up with a 105 while beating Xchanger by less than a length in the Meadowlands Cup. So I guess now Xchanger is faster than Nobiz. Student Council sure did look faster running that 97 figure in Chicago a couple of weeks ago, proving that the slow time and figure of the Pacific Classic wasn't a fluke. Zanjero is faster? How do u say Tiago is faster but maybe Awesome Gem is slower when Awesome Gem just lost by a nose to Tiago? Either u think they are both faster or both maybe slower.

The other poster mentioned Fairbanks, Master Command, Political Force and Grasshopper. Apparently he missed Grasshopper's run in Louisiana. I don't know if the other three are even pointed to the race and even if they are, none of them have ever shown the consistency to make u believe that they are going to throw up their best race. Nobiz might not be the fifth or sixth best horse. But if he's truly improved as a racehorse and it's not just the grass, there is no way that I'd say that those horses that have been named are proven better than him.

Unless they really feel like he doesn't want 10f on dirt and that his improvement is strictly a result of the switch to grass, I don't think taking a shot is a bad idea.

KY_Sasquash · #78 10-10-2007, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

But he still wouldn't be one of them.

neither did Volponi, Cat Thief and Arcangues among others

ateamstupid · #79 10-10-2007, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

But he still wouldn't be one of them.

Precisely. There's a difference between a race that's wide open due to an abundance of talent and one that's wide open because of a dearth of talent. This year's Classic is the former and Nobiz would be one of the slowest horses in the field because of it.

brianwspencer · #80 10-10-2007, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

OK so Diamond Stripes just came up with a 105 while beating Xchanger by less than a length in the Meadowlands Cup. So I guess now Xchanger is faster than Nobiz. Student Council sure did look faster running that 97 figure in Chicago a couple of weeks ago, proving that the slow time and figure of the Pacific Classic wasn't a fluke. Zanjero is faster? How do u say Tiago is faster but maybe Awesome Gem is slower when Awesome Gem just lost by a nose to Tiago? Either u think they are both faster or both maybe slower.

I wasn't as familiar with Awesome Gem's PPs, so I didn't include him -- but I guess you're right. He's probably a faster 10f dirt horse too. Make that ten.

Zanjero is capable of running a figure in the triple digits. Diamond Stripes has run more than one. Nobiz has proven capable of running in the very low 100s on his better days, at his best distances, on dirt.

So really, anyone who can run a figure of 102 on dirt can compete with Nobiz And Student Council has run a 99 and a 97, both at a mile and a quarter, which put him within a few points of Nobiz's better dirt Beyers. I'm hardly saying that Student Council is a legit contender to take the BC Classic, but he just about equally as unlikely as Nobiz would have been.