Cigar was the best horse in the last 30 years

[Slewbopper]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

In no order and off the top of my head, who'd I'd place ahead of him:

Spectacular Bid, Affirmed, Java Gold, Alysheba, Lost Code, King Glorious, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Holy Bull, Gentlemen, Lammtarra, Candy Ride, Ghostzapper, Point Given, Smarty Jones, Discreet Cat, Bernardini, Giant's Causeway

I was a Bull fan so have no great love for Cigar, but do respect what he did. How can you place horses like Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Discreet Cat, and Giant's Causeway ahead of Cigar? None of them ran more than 10 races in their careers. Cigar had more than that many G1 wins.

[robfla]

the only way Discreet Cat or Smarty Jones would beat Cigar in a 1 1/4m race is if Discreet Cat ran the first 5 furlongs and Smarty Jones ran the last 5 furlongs

[pmayjr]

I'm too new to know for sure. But I'm wondering if I'll ever see one better than Ghostzapper.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by pmayjr

I'm too new to know for sure. But I'm wondering if I'll ever see one better than Ghostzapper.

i'd be happier if i saw horses more durable than him. but when you read about half ours retiring after his abbreviated career, you have to wonder....

[philcski]

Originally Posted by pmayjr

I'm too new to know for sure. But I'm wondering if I'll ever see one better than Ghostzapper.

I don't know if you ever will. Thanks to Sightseek (and presumably Kiris Clown for posting it, I finally got to see the replay of the race that made me dance in the Belmont grandstand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSo-MRDbQ1k

Let's review, for a minute, who he beat in his last three races.
Woodward:
Saint Liam- HOTY, BCC winner, 5 time GSW (4 G1's)
Bowman's Band- G2 winner, 12 time GS placed
Newfoundland- multiple GSW/GSP
Seek Gold- G1 winner
Midway Road- multiple GSW, track recordholder at Keeneland 9F
Presidentialaffair- multiple GSW, track recordholder at Monmouth

BC Classic (maybe the best field ever assembled for the race):
Roses in May- multiple GSW, Dubai World Cup, etc.
Pleasantly Perfect- BCC winner, Dubai World Cup, 6 G1/G2 wins
Perfect Drift- 7x GSW, 22x GSP
Azeri- Champion female 3x, HOTY, 13x GSW (11 G1's)
Personal Rush- how did he finish 6th?!? but a champion in Japan
Birdstone- '03 Champagne, '04 Belmont, '04 Travers winner
Dynever- multiple G3 winner
Fantasticat- '04 Super Derby winner
Funny Cide- Derby, Preakness, '04 JCGC winner, et al. 5x GSW
Bowman's Band- see above
Newfoundland- see above
Freefourinternet- 4x G2 winner (believe it or not)

Met Mile:
Silver Wagon- 4x GSW, 2x G1 winner
Forest Danger- G1 winner
Pomeroy- 2x G1 winner, multiple GSW
Sir Shackelton- 3x GSW
Love of Money- G2 winner

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by philcski

I don't know if you ever will. Thanks to Sightseek (and presumably Kiris Clown for posting it, I finally got to see the replay of the race that made me dance in the Belmont grandstand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSo-MRDbQ1k

Let's review, for a minute, who he beat in his last three races.
Woodward:
Saint Liam- HOTY, BCC winner, 5 time GSW (4 G1's)
Bowman's Band- G2 winner, 12 time GS placed
Newfoundland- multiple GSW/GSP
Seek Gold- G1 winner
Midway Road- multiple GSW, track recordholder at Keeneland 9F
Presidentialaffair- multiple GSW, track recordholder at Monmouth

BC Classic (maybe the best field ever assembled for the race):
Roses in May- multiple GSW, Dubai World Cup, etc.
Pleasantly Perfect- BCC winner, Dubai World Cup, 6 G1/G2 wins
Perfect Drift- 7x GSW, 22x GSP
Azeri- Champion female 3x, HOTY, 13x GSW (11 G1's)
Personal Rush- how did he finish 6th?!? but a champion in Japan
Birdstone- '03 Champagne, '04 Belmont, '04 Travers winner
Dynever- multiple G3 winner
Fantasticat- '04 Super Derby winner
Funny Cide- Derby, Preakness, '04 JCGC winner, et al. 5x GSW
Bowman's Band- see above
Newfoundland- see above
Freefourinternet- 4x G2 winner (believe it or not)

Met Mile:
Silver Wagon- 4x GSW, 2x G1 winner
Forest Danger- G1 winner
Pomeroy- 2x G1 winner, multiple GSW
Sir Shackelton- 3x GSW
Love of Money- G2 winner

Let's not get carried away, he beat 3 very nice horses and one great filly who wasn't quite in his league. Half the low level stakes horses around have beaten Seek Gold and Perfect Drift (and a lot of the other horses you've mentioned). I really don't think they add to his legacy. His legacy is his amazing speed figures, not who he beat and what they accomplished at various points in their careers.

[Swap Fliparoo]

Originally Posted by philcski

I don't know if you ever will. Thanks to Sightseek (and presumably Kiris Clown for posting it, I finally got to see the replay of the race that made me dance in the Belmont grandstand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSo-MRDbQ1k

Thanks for putting up the link, i finally got to see it!!

[The Indomitable DrugS]

They would have for sure. However, I doubt either would have done so as stylishly as GZ did.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

They would have for sure. However, I doubt either would have done so as stylishly as GZ did.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

They would have for sure. However, I doubt either would have done so as stylishly as GZ did.

All comes down to your preference. Cigar could have taken them on every four weeks for six months straight and beat them. Ghostzapper couldn't have done that but would have beat them more impressively than Cigar could when he could actually race. Not really fair to compare the two, both should just be appreciated for what they could do.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I have to say, I think that Cigar would have beat those fields as well.
Holy Bull definitely would have.

Cigar wouldn't have won that Classic IMO, Roses in May and Pleasantly Perfect would have knocked him off. Holy Bull... now that's another story. I wish he were doing better at stud because we need more outcrosses.

Trust me, I really loved Holy Bull, but in a head to head matchup I'd still take Ghostzapper.

I brought up those fields because I'm tired of hearing how weak they were. Every single runner was a GSW at some point in their career, how much more can you ask for? They looked weak because he destroyed them. For example, remember how good Forest Danger was? Humiliated him.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I think you might be overrating Pleasantly Perfect a bit and Forest Danger. Just my opinion. Ghostzapper did run faster figures than Holy Bull. But while you bring up that Classic, which was a bit weak IMO. look at the fields Holy Bull crushed in May of his 3 year old year and then later in September.

Met Mile-
Devil His Due- Multiple GSW including Wood Memorial, Gulfstream Park Handicap, Pimlico Special and Suburban.
Cherokee Run- Multiple GSW and Champion sprinter of 1994. Won BC Sprint.
Tinners Way- Multiple GSW including Californian and Pacific Classic (twice).
Colonial Affair-Mutiple GSW and Classic winner. Won Belmont, Whitney and Jockey Club Gold Cup.
Virginia Rapids- Multiple GSW, including Peter Pan, Tom Fool and Carter
American Chance- Multiple GSW including Jersey Derby and Forego
West By West- Multiple GSW
Federal Funds

Woodward-
Devil His Due, Colonial Affair and Tinners Way- see above
Go For Gin- Multiple GSW, classic winner. Including Kentucky Derby, Remsen
Bertrando- Multiple GSW, Champion Older Male of 1993. Wins include Del Mar Futurity, Norfolk, San Felipe, Pacific Classic, Woodward.
Brunswick- Won gr. 1 Whitney in 1993
Pistols and Roses- Multiple GSW including Bluegrass and Donn (twice)

Pretty comparable fields I think.

That Met Mile field was awesome, would never argue that, and the performance was better than awesome. I was there that day... 3YO's aren't supposed to do that.

[Slewbopper]

Originally Posted by philcski

That Met Mile field was awesome, would never argue that, and the performance was better than awesome. I was there that day... 3YO's aren't supposed to do that.

Don't know why I wasn't there that day. I remember like yesterday going to CT OTB and betting $50 to win on him and standing in my living room watching the tube screaming over and over "Piss on them Bull. Piss on them Bull." You know how you get caught up in that repetitive thing when cheering a horse down the stretch? Loved that horse.

[Slewbopper]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Though I am sure that this is researchable (word?), I seem to remember Chris Lincoln's voiceover of the Woodward race on ESPN's Top Ten Races of the Year, in which he said that there were nine Grade One winners in that race who had earned $15 million. I think that this race was voted Race of the Year by those affiliated with ESPN's weekly racing show.

It was an 8 horse field
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvixU...k%20New%20York

[Dunbar]

"Greatness" has several aspects. I include consistency and durability as aspects of greatness. So, whenever someone says that Ghostzapper without-a-doubt was a "greater" horse than Cigar, I ask how many Ghostzapper vs Cigar races would Ghostzapper have won if they faced off 10 times in a year? I believe Cigar would have won at least 5. Could Ghostzapper have even showed up for more than 5?

I love both horses. But what Cigar accomplished on the track (and on so many tracks!) was something special. IMO he's as "great" as any horse since Spectacular Bid.

--Dunbar

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by robfla

the only way Discreet Cat or Smarty Jones would beat Cigar in a 1 1/4m race is if Discreet Cat ran the first 5 furlongs and Smarty Jones ran the last 5 furlongs

hey dude, how come i cant see your avatar?

[The Bid]

I think Smarty was a better horse than Cigar.

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by The Bid

I think Smarty was a better horse than Cigar.

And bernardini was better than Smarty.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

And bernardini was better than Smarty.

Bernardini folded like a tent the first time a horse looked him in the eye! Alysheba was right about Risen Star although I don't blame Eddie D for that ride, the trainer (sic) and his big-mouth owner instructed Eddie to fall back out of the number one hole despite the fact that all the speed (including Winning Colors) drew outside...he was left with more than any horse could possibly do turning for home yet rallied bravely for third...had he been used early to gain a forward stalking position, we'd have 12 Triple Crown winners now! Risen Star was a great horse, Secretariat's best and that says a lot with the inclusion of "The Iron Lady"!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I'm not so sure Bernardini folded like a tent. He was passed by Invasor, who as we know was undefeated here and multiple grade 1 winner. There is no shame in running second to him in the Classic IMO.

i wouldn't say he folded either.
but i also wouldn't say that bernardini was better than smarty.