Cigar was the best horse in the last 30 years

[philcski]

Digging deeper, because I've got nothing better to do, here's Lukas' champion fillies results as producers:

Landaluce: (none, died at 2)
Althea: nothing of note. Best was Aurora- listed SW
Life's Magic: nothing of note. Best is Simon Pure- an allowance winner
Family Style: 1 START out of 5 foals
Lady's Secret: nothing of note, only 3 US winners
North Sider: nothing of note, best was 2-15 Ruby My Dear
Sacahuista: best was Ekraar, who won an Italian G1
Open Mind: 2 foals, a combined 4-48
Winning Colors: nothing of note in the US
Flanders: Surfside, who was outstanding, and that's about it
Golden Attraction: nothing of note, 5 to start, 4 winners, but no stakes winners
Serena's Song: Grand Reward, Sophisticat, Harlington, and Serena's Tune all won graded stakes

So other than Serena's Song, not much out of an incredibly good group of fillies.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by philcski

Digging deeper, because I've got nothing better to do, here's Lukas' champion fillies results as producers:

Landaluce: (none, died at 2)
Althea: nothing of note. Best was Aurora- listed SW
Life's Magic: nothing of note. Best is Simon Pure- an allowance winner
Family Style: 1 START out of 5 foals
Lady's Secret: nothing of note, only 3 US winners
North Sider: nothing of note, best was 2-15 Ruby My Dear
Sacahuista: best was Ekraar, who won an Italian G1
Open Mind: 2 foals, a combined 4-48
Winning Colors: nothing of note in the US
Flanders: Surfside, who was outstanding, and that's about it
Golden Attraction: nothing of note, 5 to start, 4 winners, but no stakes winners
Serena's Song: Grand Reward, Sophisticat, Harlington, and Serena's Tune all won graded stakes

So other than Serena's Song, not much out of an incredibly good group of fillies.

I've always felt that the most successful race mares don't become good producers because of all the things that are pumped into their systems to get them to the top racing levels. I think this list just goes to show how special a filly Serena's Song really was. Same for Personal Ensign.

[King Glorious]

If Cigar is the best horse of the last 30 years, I must have been watching a different sport than thoroughbred horse racing. Most accomplished? That I could go with. But best? Not even close. In no order and off the top of my head, who'd I'd place ahead of him:

Spectacular Bid, Affirmed, Java Gold, Alysheba, Lost Code, King Glorious, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Holy Bull, Gentlemen, Lammtarra, Candy Ride, Ghostzapper, Point Given, Smarty Jones, Discreet Cat, Bernardini, Giant's Causeway

[philcski]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I've always felt that the most successful race mares don't become good producers because of all the things that are pumped into their systems to get them to the top racing levels. I think this list just goes to show how special a filly Serena's Song really was. Same for Personal Ensign.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

If Cigar is the best horse of the last 30 years, I must have been watching a different sport than thoroughbred horse racing. Most accomplished? That I could go with. But best? Not even close. In no order and off the top of my head, who'd I'd place ahead of him:

Spectacular Bid, Affirmed, Java Gold, Alysheba, Lost Code, King Glorious, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Holy Bull, Gentlemen, Lammtarra, Candy Ride, Ghostzapper, Point Given, Smarty Jones, Discreet Cat, Bernardini, Giant's Causeway

Agree 100% on both points.

Nothing against Cigar, who was a true champion and brought his A game every time, but the group you offer would blow his doors off.

You didn't even include those such as Tiznow, Skip Away, Awesome Again...

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Smarty Jones???? Discreet Cat??? Surely you jest.

Smarty Jones would have beaten Cigar at any distance on any track.

[King Glorious]

Where Cigar gains stature is in the fact that he brought it time after time. He traveled. He carried some weight. He was ultra-consistent and if u are to ask me would I take him over some of the other horses I mentioned, I would based on those factors alone. I'd rather have a horse that will give me a 115 race every time over one that is just as capable of giving me a 125 as he is a 105. So for an extended period of sustained top level racing, Cigar moves way up the list. But if u are to take all of the horses and take their best two or three races and say which horses had the most ability, Cigar is much further down the list than his list of accomplishments would suggest.

[eajinabi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

If Cigar is the best horse of the last 30 years, I must have been watching a different sport than thoroughbred horse racing. Most accomplished? That I could go with. But best? Not even close. In no order and off the top of my head, who'd I'd place ahead of him:

Spectacular Bid, Affirmed, Java Gold, Alysheba, Lost Code, King Glorious, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Holy Bull, Gentlemen, Lammtarra, Candy Ride, Ghostzapper, Point Given, Smarty Jones, Discreet Cat, Bernardini, Giant's Causeway

Invasor will mow all of them down.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by eajinabi

Invasor will mow all of them down.

i think that's the first horse mentioned in this entire thread that cigar would actually beat.

[KirisClown]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

i think that's the first horse mentioned in this entire thread that cigar would actually beat.

Don't forget... Afleet Alex was mentioned...

[Slewbopper]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

In no order and off the top of my head, who'd I'd place ahead of him:

Spectacular Bid, Affirmed, Java Gold, Alysheba, Lost Code, King Glorious, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Holy Bull, Gentlemen, Lammtarra, Candy Ride, Ghostzapper, Point Given, Smarty Jones, Discreet Cat, Bernardini, Giant's Causeway

I was a Bull fan so have no great love for Cigar, but do respect what he did. How can you place horses like Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Discreet Cat, and Giant's Causeway ahead of Cigar? None of them ran more than 10 races in their careers. Cigar had more than that many G1 wins.

[robfla]

the only way Discreet Cat or Smarty Jones would beat Cigar in a 1 1/4m race is if Discreet Cat ran the first 5 furlongs and Smarty Jones ran the last 5 furlongs

[pmayjr]

I'm too new to know for sure. But I'm wondering if I'll ever see one better than Ghostzapper.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by pmayjr

I'm too new to know for sure. But I'm wondering if I'll ever see one better than Ghostzapper.

i'd be happier if i saw horses more durable than him. but when you read about half ours retiring after his abbreviated career, you have to wonder....

[philcski]

Originally Posted by pmayjr

I'm too new to know for sure. But I'm wondering if I'll ever see one better than Ghostzapper.

I don't know if you ever will. Thanks to Sightseek (and presumably Kiris Clown for posting it, I finally got to see the replay of the race that made me dance in the Belmont grandstand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSo-MRDbQ1k

Let's review, for a minute, who he beat in his last three races.
Woodward:
Saint Liam- HOTY, BCC winner, 5 time GSW (4 G1's)
Bowman's Band- G2 winner, 12 time GS placed
Newfoundland- multiple GSW/GSP
Seek Gold- G1 winner
Midway Road- multiple GSW, track recordholder at Keeneland 9F
Presidentialaffair- multiple GSW, track recordholder at Monmouth

BC Classic (maybe the best field ever assembled for the race):
Roses in May- multiple GSW, Dubai World Cup, etc.
Pleasantly Perfect- BCC winner, Dubai World Cup, 6 G1/G2 wins
Perfect Drift- 7x GSW, 22x GSP
Azeri- Champion female 3x, HOTY, 13x GSW (11 G1's)
Personal Rush- how did he finish 6th?!? but a champion in Japan
Birdstone- '03 Champagne, '04 Belmont, '04 Travers winner
Dynever- multiple G3 winner
Fantasticat- '04 Super Derby winner
Funny Cide- Derby, Preakness, '04 JCGC winner, et al. 5x GSW
Bowman's Band- see above
Newfoundland- see above
Freefourinternet- 4x G2 winner (believe it or not)

Met Mile:
Silver Wagon- 4x GSW, 2x G1 winner
Forest Danger- G1 winner
Pomeroy- 2x G1 winner, multiple GSW
Sir Shackelton- 3x GSW
Love of Money- G2 winner

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by robfla

the only way Discreet Cat or Smarty Jones would beat Cigar in a 1 1/4m race is if Discreet Cat ran the first 5 furlongs and Smarty Jones ran the last 5 furlongs

hey dude, how come i cant see your avatar?

[The Bid]

I think Smarty was a better horse than Cigar.

[robfla]

as much as i like smarty - maybe at 7f or a mile... but cigar had that burst of speed at the 3/8 pole that just inhaled the field when he went 9-10f.

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

hey dude, how come i cant see your avatar?

oh, and charlie.. the avatar is clear as a bell.. a naked blonde, don't know why YOU can't see it

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Slewbopper

I was a Bull fan so have no great love for Cigar, but do respect what he did. How can you place horses like Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Discreet Cat, and Giant's Causeway ahead of Cigar? None of them ran more than 10 races in their careers. Cigar had more than that many G1 wins.

Based on what I think was their ability levels, not accomplishments. Had they run as many times as Cigar did, I think they would have accomplished quite a bit more than they did. I was only listing them according to what I thought each horse was capable of at his best. I thought Cigar's best attribute was his consistency, not his brilliance.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Based on what I think was their ability levels, not accomplishments. Had they run as many times as Cigar did, I think they would have accomplished quite a bit more than they did. I was only listing them according to what I thought each horse was capable of at his best. I thought Cigar's best attribute was his consistency, not his brilliance.

This is what makes all these comparisons difficult. How can anyone really compare two horses like say..........Ghostzapper and John Henry and determine who was "better"? One guy could point to speed figs and overall winning percentage in races and conclude that Ghostzapper was CLEARLY better. Another could look at number of G1 races won and decide that John Henry was far and away a better horse. Which one is right? It all depends. Personally I would rate John Henry higher than Ghostzapper because he accomplished a lot more. But if the two were to square off in a race on the dirt, I would pick Ghostzapper. It almost seems like this question of who is the "best" is actually two different questions merged into one.
1) Who accomplished the most?
2) Who would win if they all met in a race?

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by miraja2

This is what makes all these comparisons difficult. How can anyone really compare two horses like say..........Ghostzapper and John Henry and determine who was "better"? One guy could point to speed figs and overall winning percentage in races and conclude that Ghostzapper was CLEARLY better. Another could look at number of G1 races won and decide that John Henry was far and away a better horse. Which one is right? It all depends. Personally I would rate John Henry higher than Ghostzapper because he accomplished a lot more. But if the two were to square off in a race on the dirt, I would pick Ghostzapper. It almost seems like this question of who is the "best" is actually two different questions merged into one.
1) Who accomplished the most?
2) Who would win if they all met in a race?

I'm glad someone mentioned him in 6 pages of opinions

[smuthg]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Based on what I think was their ability levels, not accomplishments. Had they run as many times as Cigar did, I think they would have accomplished quite a bit more than they did. I was only listing them according to what I thought each horse was capable of at his best. I thought Cigar's best attribute was his consistency, not his brilliance.

I thought Cigar's B/C Classic win was pretty damn brilliant...