Cigar was the best horse in the last 30 years

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I know you can figure out there connection!



(are we still doing Sergio's Sunday night because I'll make reservations)

Let me talk to the one in charge!
I'm stumped!

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

they were all sired by horses more known for turf!! sorta?

Well, Caro for sure (Cozzene, With Approval, Crystal Palace, etc.) the others? I never thought of Sec or Deputy Minister as turf sires.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Is it they were all trained by the same person?

Yes... Sightseek keyed me in. I'm so dumb.

D. WAYNE LUKAS was the trainer of all three.

[cowgirlintexas]

Originally Posted by philcski

Yes... Sightseek keyed me in. I'm so dumb.

D. WAYNE LUKAS was the trainer of all three.

Gee.. I wonder if all the steroids that he gave them could of had something to do with it....

[smuthg]

Originally Posted by cowgirlintexas

Gee.. I wonder if all the steroids that he gave them could of had something to do with it....

Perfect line of questioning in a thread about Cigar... Again, love Cigar, but to think he is naturally sterile is almost as crazy as saying he's not one of the best horses in the last 25 years...

[philcski]

Digging deeper, because I've got nothing better to do, here's Lukas' champion fillies results as producers:

Landaluce: (none, died at 2)
Althea: nothing of note. Best was Aurora- listed SW
Life's Magic: nothing of note. Best is Simon Pure- an allowance winner
Family Style: 1 START out of 5 foals
Lady's Secret: nothing of note, only 3 US winners
North Sider: nothing of note, best was 2-15 Ruby My Dear
Sacahuista: best was Ekraar, who won an Italian G1
Open Mind: 2 foals, a combined 4-48
Winning Colors: nothing of note in the US
Flanders: Surfside, who was outstanding, and that's about it
Golden Attraction: nothing of note, 5 to start, 4 winners, but no stakes winners
Serena's Song: Grand Reward, Sophisticat, Harlington, and Serena's Tune all won graded stakes

So other than Serena's Song, not much out of an incredibly good group of fillies.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by philcski

Digging deeper, because I've got nothing better to do, here's Lukas' champion fillies results as producers:

Landaluce: (none, died at 2)
Althea: nothing of note. Best was Aurora- listed SW
Life's Magic: nothing of note. Best is Simon Pure- an allowance winner
Family Style: 1 START out of 5 foals
Lady's Secret: nothing of note, only 3 US winners
North Sider: nothing of note, best was 2-15 Ruby My Dear
Sacahuista: best was Ekraar, who won an Italian G1
Open Mind: 2 foals, a combined 4-48
Winning Colors: nothing of note in the US
Flanders: Surfside, who was outstanding, and that's about it
Golden Attraction: nothing of note, 5 to start, 4 winners, but no stakes winners
Serena's Song: Grand Reward, Sophisticat, Harlington, and Serena's Tune all won graded stakes

So other than Serena's Song, not much out of an incredibly good group of fillies.

I've always felt that the most successful race mares don't become good producers because of all the things that are pumped into their systems to get them to the top racing levels. I think this list just goes to show how special a filly Serena's Song really was. Same for Personal Ensign.

[King Glorious]

If Cigar is the best horse of the last 30 years, I must have been watching a different sport than thoroughbred horse racing. Most accomplished? That I could go with. But best? Not even close. In no order and off the top of my head, who'd I'd place ahead of him:

Spectacular Bid, Affirmed, Java Gold, Alysheba, Lost Code, King Glorious, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Holy Bull, Gentlemen, Lammtarra, Candy Ride, Ghostzapper, Point Given, Smarty Jones, Discreet Cat, Bernardini, Giant's Causeway

[philcski]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I've always felt that the most successful race mares don't become good producers because of all the things that are pumped into their systems to get them to the top racing levels. I think this list just goes to show how special a filly Serena's Song really was. Same for Personal Ensign.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

If Cigar is the best horse of the last 30 years, I must have been watching a different sport than thoroughbred horse racing. Most accomplished? That I could go with. But best? Not even close. In no order and off the top of my head, who'd I'd place ahead of him:

Spectacular Bid, Affirmed, Java Gold, Alysheba, Lost Code, King Glorious, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Holy Bull, Gentlemen, Lammtarra, Candy Ride, Ghostzapper, Point Given, Smarty Jones, Discreet Cat, Bernardini, Giant's Causeway

Agree 100% on both points.

Nothing against Cigar, who was a true champion and brought his A game every time, but the group you offer would blow his doors off.

You didn't even include those such as Tiznow, Skip Away, Awesome Again...

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Smarty Jones???? Discreet Cat??? Surely you jest.

Smarty Jones would have beaten Cigar at any distance on any track.

[King Glorious]

Where Cigar gains stature is in the fact that he brought it time after time. He traveled. He carried some weight. He was ultra-consistent and if u are to ask me would I take him over some of the other horses I mentioned, I would based on those factors alone. I'd rather have a horse that will give me a 115 race every time over one that is just as capable of giving me a 125 as he is a 105. So for an extended period of sustained top level racing, Cigar moves way up the list. But if u are to take all of the horses and take their best two or three races and say which horses had the most ability, Cigar is much further down the list than his list of accomplishments would suggest.

[eajinabi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

If Cigar is the best horse of the last 30 years, I must have been watching a different sport than thoroughbred horse racing. Most accomplished? That I could go with. But best? Not even close. In no order and off the top of my head, who'd I'd place ahead of him:

Spectacular Bid, Affirmed, Java Gold, Alysheba, Lost Code, King Glorious, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Holy Bull, Gentlemen, Lammtarra, Candy Ride, Ghostzapper, Point Given, Smarty Jones, Discreet Cat, Bernardini, Giant's Causeway

Invasor will mow all of them down.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by eajinabi

Invasor will mow all of them down.

i think that's the first horse mentioned in this entire thread that cigar would actually beat.

[Slewbopper]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

In no order and off the top of my head, who'd I'd place ahead of him:

Spectacular Bid, Affirmed, Java Gold, Alysheba, Lost Code, King Glorious, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Holy Bull, Gentlemen, Lammtarra, Candy Ride, Ghostzapper, Point Given, Smarty Jones, Discreet Cat, Bernardini, Giant's Causeway

I was a Bull fan so have no great love for Cigar, but do respect what he did. How can you place horses like Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Discreet Cat, and Giant's Causeway ahead of Cigar? None of them ran more than 10 races in their careers. Cigar had more than that many G1 wins.

[robfla]

the only way Discreet Cat or Smarty Jones would beat Cigar in a 1 1/4m race is if Discreet Cat ran the first 5 furlongs and Smarty Jones ran the last 5 furlongs

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Slewbopper

I was a Bull fan so have no great love for Cigar, but do respect what he did. How can you place horses like Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Discreet Cat, and Giant's Causeway ahead of Cigar? None of them ran more than 10 races in their careers. Cigar had more than that many G1 wins.

Based on what I think was their ability levels, not accomplishments. Had they run as many times as Cigar did, I think they would have accomplished quite a bit more than they did. I was only listing them according to what I thought each horse was capable of at his best. I thought Cigar's best attribute was his consistency, not his brilliance.