Cigar was the best horse in the last 30 years

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i doubt the streak would have happend had holy bull not suffered his injury. but that's racing.

i'd imagine there could be arguments made for many horses in the thirty year period. cigar was lucky enough to run in a period where there wasn't much top competition.
i think silver charm at his best would have beaten him. sunday silence would have taken him to school. at belmont, easy goer would beat him. that's off the top of my head, and ignoring the obvious such as seattle slew, the bid, etc.

Personally, I think Risen Star may have been the best since The Bid but he never got to prove it...to many "ifs" but the Star's Belmont (on three good hooves) was a sight to see! Likewise, I rank Secretariat and Kincsem at the top of my "all time" list yet there is no way to prove they belong any more than others. The "who did he/she beat" argument is a bit meaningless to me...who did Man O War beat? Certainly I can argue that he ducked the best of his generation...Exterminator. He did handle a worn-down Sir Barton. Ribot destroyed all he faced but what was their quality? Fun discussion but simply a matter of personal opinion.

Does the winning horse in this competition get a pretty sash with letters covered in rhinestones that read "DeeTee Forum Bestest Horse Evar?"

If so, I'm going to vote for Best Pal.

[Danzig]

well, the original title/post really is mistaken. as others said, in the last 30 years, you would have to include seattle slew, affirmed, and the bid. so, no, cigar wasn't the best in the last 30 years.
it would be the late, great seatle slew. then affirmed, and then the bid. yes, in that order. one beat the next, who beat the third. yes, i know, four over a three year old.

We need a poll option so we can do a knockoff of the ESPN NOW deal. Since good horses hardly run anymore, what better way to get excited about the game than have a popularity contest?

[cowgirlintexas]

Well my "favorite" is Cigar... I just loved to watch him lower that head and go for it. Heck, I get goosebumps even now thinking about him running. He did allot for racing and helping to bring in new fans and that is always a Big + for racing as did most of the other horses that are being mentioned... This will always be a matter of opinion and the "best" will never get a 100% of the votes.

[cowgirlintexas]

Originally Posted by Cardus

What fans did he bring to the sport? Aside from attendance figures for the Derby, Preakness, Breeders' Cup, and opening days at Del Mar and Saratoga, where are the fans brought to the sport by Cigar?

"Brought new fans to the sport" is a throwaway line.

I'm sure there are thousands... and a few on here as well...When horses make the news and make history people notice and get involved... Point is he did a good thing for racing , was a great horse and can never be credited as "just another horse".

[Indian Charlie]

there are so many great and forgotten horses over the last 30 years, i would be hard pressed to include cigar in my top 30 over the last 30 years.

i'll start with 3. precisionist, greinton and spend a buck.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cardus

I'm not going to carry on with this all night, but let's take a look:

I was at the Gold Cup that he lost to Skip Away. Great race. I haven't seen a crowd that size at a Gold Cup since. Where'd those fans go?

Cigar ran in the Mass Cap, too. I see that Suffolk has thrived since.

A great horse brings out fans... on the day he or she runs at the local racetrack.

I don't think that is entirely true. It took Smarty Jones to make me take note of how interesting and multifaceted the sport is...I know a few who got involved by seeing the Afleet Alex story. We all have our hook...

Top stars do have an impact.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Cardus

I'm not going to carry on with this all night, but let's take a look:

I was at the Gold Cup that he lost to Skip Away. Great race. I haven't seen a crowd that size at a Gold Cup since. Where'd those fans go?

Cigar ran in the Mass Cap, too. I see that Suffolk has thrived since.

A great horse brings out fans... on the day he or she runs at the local racetrack.

Disagree....you can debate all night long the merit of Cigar vs others, but how can you limit what it means getting people to the track? How do you know where those fans went? I saw Cigar at Arlington in that made for TV race and it was incredible. How many rock stars horses actually exist? Or existed? That could be another string on it's own.
Fast forward ten or eleven years...If he was running now and not "positioning" himself for races, what would it be like? We are gaga over SS but who would win that match race?

[jerseybred]

Originally Posted by Cardus

What fans did he bring to the sport? Aside from attendance figures for the Derby, Preakness, Breeders' Cup, and opening days at Del Mar and Saratoga, where are the fans brought to the sport by Cigar?

"Brought new fans to the sport" is a throwaway line.

in his day he may have not brought new fans to the sport ... but after his day... and after seeing him at the horse park in kentucky & after watching his replays he brought a newfound respect to the sport 16 times over... at least for me anyway.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

We need a poll option so we can do a knockoff of the ESPN NOW deal. Since good horses hardly run anymore, what better way to get excited about the game than have a popularity contest?

oh please no. i thought that espn now thing was stupid.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Spectacular Bid was 24-for-24, with 14 Grade 1 wins, and numerous track record between the distances of 7-to-10 furlongs. He also had the record for fastest Ragozin sheet figure ever run for over 23 years.

Cigar is certainly not in the top five horses to have raced in the last thirty years.

[smuthg]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Spectacular Bid was 24-for-24, with 14 Grade 1 wins, and numerous track record between the distances of 7-to-10 furlongs. He also had the record for fastest Ragozin sheet figure ever run for over 23 years.

Cigar is certainly not in the top five horses to have raced in the last thirty years.

Thirty years is a bit much, but over the last 25 years I think the list of horses who could beat Cigar's "A" game is pretty slim...

[ELA]

I've always found the "who did he beat" or "he didn't beat anybody" arguement very interesting. I am not only talking about Cigar here. If you have a sound horse, pick easy spots, beat mediocre horses, get these visually impressive victories over lower quality horses, and so on -- sure, I can see some credence in the "he didn't beat anybody" claim. However, on the contrary -- if you show up to the big dances, dance after dance, take on all comers (whoever else shows up and you have no control over that), beat them, beat them again, something along these lines -- then the "who did he beat" or "he didn't beat anybody" arguement, in my mind, has very little, perhaps no, credibility.

Now, about Cigar -- without getting into the stats and going through the PP's line by line/race by race -- this horse raced, raced and raced over the course of what? 2 years? I mean, in 95 didn't he race 10 times, and something like 8 G1's? Did he duck anybody in that campaign? You want to say it was a "weak crop" -- well, that's kind of like a weak jab in a fight. I mean you could say it, but how much are we really talking about here.


I remember him when he debuted as a 4yo, which I think was his first start for Bill Mott. That was kind of like a throwout year because they kept him on the turf for his first 3 or 4 starts. He didn't do much. But late in the year, when Mott put him back on the dirt, that's when the fun really started, LOL. I think his next start and last start of the year was the NY Mile and he trounced Devil His Due. Anyway, aside from the walk down memory lane, during his 5yo year, he took on whoever showed up, he himself showed up coast to coast and I don't remember them ducking anyone.

Regardless, he had a tough campaign. That year was no walk in the park. I don't remember any freshners or vacations for him. He raced 9 times going into the BC (and I think every one of them were G1's -- right? I don't remember off the top of my head).

Once again -- he showed up.

What did Tom Durkin say . . . "the incomparable, the invincible, the unbeatable Cigar!!!"

Eric

[Thunder Gulch]

I'll have to agree with many above...the case can certainly be made for the best in the last 25 years, but that late 70's run with Slew, Affirmed, and Bid would all rate higher on my list.

[smuthg]

[quote=Cigar is certainly not in the top five horses to have raced in the last thirty years.[/QUOTE]

Not that I put a lot of stock in the rankings, but Bloodhorse did rank Cigar as the 18th best horse of the 20th Century...

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Personally, I think Risen Star may have been the best since The Bid but he never got to prove it...to many "ifs" but the Star's Belmont (on three good hooves) was a sight to see! Likewise, I rank Secretariat and Kincsem at the top of my "all time" list yet there is no way to prove they belong any more than others. The "who did he/she beat" argument is a bit meaningless to me...who did Man O War beat? Certainly I can argue that he ducked the best of his generation...Exterminator. He did handle a worn-down Sir Barton. Ribot destroyed all he faced but what was their quality? Fun discussion but simply a matter of personal opinion.

Nah the 'ducked Exterminator' bit actually isn't legitimate as a flaw for Man O'War based on what we now know. I highly recommend the book by Dorothy Ours for MOW info and I believe that's where I read this (I'm not at home right now and don't have the book with me to double check but I'm pretty sure about it). It's actually a misconception that's been going on for awhile. Exterminator could've been in the match race with Sir Barton and MOW but there was a caveat, he would only be in it if the race were longer (not that they liked the location either but it was mainly a distance question). Once the other two owners settled on preferred distance, it meant Exterminator would be at a disadvantage. Now if you wanted them to face each other at 1 1/2 to 2 miles we can argue the best horse (except we're not really comparing these other great horses for their ability to get 2 miles) but his owners were definitely not going to go up against MOW and Sir Barton at anything like 1 1/4 or lower. They made that decision so I'll argue that Exterminator actually ducked MOW, not the other way around. They did try to work out a three-horse race. I think they should've gone for it. Exterminator probably would've beaten a sore-hooved Sir Barton that day which ain't chump change since he was still a talented horse. Might've actually made MOW break a sweat. As it was there was really no contest.

Colin and Fair Play don't get enough attention. Talk about guts and talent. All that sparring and finally Fair Play managed to run Colin off his feet at the end, Colin still won, and got so fried it was a Pyhrric victory.

[_ed_]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Nah the 'ducked Exterminator' bit actually isn't legitimate as a flaw for Man O'War based on what we now know. I highly recommend the book by Dorothy Ours for MOW info and I believe that's where I read this (I'm not at home right now and don't have the book with me to double check but I'm pretty sure about it). It's actually a misconception that's been going on for awhile. Exterminator could've been in the match race with Sir Barton and MOW but there was a caveat, he would only be in it if the race were longer (not that they liked the location either but it was mainly a distance question). Once the other two owners settled on preferred distance, it meant Exterminator would be at a disadvantage. Now if you wanted them to face each other at 1 1/2 to 2 miles we can argue the best horse (except we're not really comparing these other great horses for their ability to get 2 miles) but his owners were definitely not going to go up against MOW and Sir Barton at anything like 1 1/4 or lower. They made that decision so I'll argue that Exterminator actually ducked MOW, not the other way around.

Yeah the book did say that, just finished reading it last week myself. Great read it was too.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by _ed_

Yeah the book did say that, just finished reading it last week myself. Great read it was too.

What do you think about all the drug use?

[_ed_]

I found that quite disturbing, had no idea that sort of thing took place to such an extent.