Cigar was the best horse in the last 30 years

[NTamm1215]

Cigar beat everyone who showed up for sixteen consecutive races. I know that is a trite way to argue the whole "who did he beat" debate, but it has to hold water.

I just don't feel the same way about Skip Away that many people do. When you mention him against Cigar I just immediately think Cigar was better, of course that's just a matter of personal opinion.

Ghostzapper is an interesting case in that when he got good, which was basically in his second career start, it almost seemed like no one could ever beat him. Think about the 2004 Breeders' Cup Classic. That race included the 2003 Derby and Preakness winner fresh off a Jockey Club Gold Cup win, the 2002 Horse of the Year, the 2004 Belmont and Travers winner, the 2003 Breeders' Cup Classic winner and the 2004 Whitney winner and other Grade I winners. Ghostzapper beat these horses like a drum.

I like the whole debate a lot, but I'm just not willing to say anyone was the best of the last 30 years. I'm glad we had so many that the discussion can continue.

How many of you think that if Street Sense wins out and then was able to have a 4 year-old campaign (which we know he will not so this is hypothetical) that he would garner some consideration?

NT

[Danzig]

i doubt the streak would have happend had holy bull not suffered his injury. but that's racing.

i'd imagine there could be arguments made for many horses in the thirty year period. cigar was lucky enough to run in a period where there wasn't much top competition.
i think silver charm at his best would have beaten him. sunday silence would have taken him to school. at belmont, easy goer would beat him. that's off the top of my head, and ignoring the obvious such as seattle slew, the bid, etc.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i doubt the streak would have happend had holy bull not suffered his injury. but that's racing.

i'd imagine there could be arguments made for many horses in the thirty year period. cigar was lucky enough to run in a period where there wasn't much top competition.
i think silver charm at his best would have beaten him. sunday silence would have taken him to school. at belmont, easy goer would beat him. that's off the top of my head, and ignoring the obvious such as seattle slew, the bid, etc.

Personally, I think Risen Star may have been the best since The Bid but he never got to prove it...to many "ifs" but the Star's Belmont (on three good hooves) was a sight to see! Likewise, I rank Secretariat and Kincsem at the top of my "all time" list yet there is no way to prove they belong any more than others. The "who did he/she beat" argument is a bit meaningless to me...who did Man O War beat? Certainly I can argue that he ducked the best of his generation...Exterminator. He did handle a worn-down Sir Barton. Ribot destroyed all he faced but what was their quality? Fun discussion but simply a matter of personal opinion.

Does the winning horse in this competition get a pretty sash with letters covered in rhinestones that read "DeeTee Forum Bestest Horse Evar?"

If so, I'm going to vote for Best Pal.

[Danzig]

well, the original title/post really is mistaken. as others said, in the last 30 years, you would have to include seattle slew, affirmed, and the bid. so, no, cigar wasn't the best in the last 30 years.
it would be the late, great seatle slew. then affirmed, and then the bid. yes, in that order. one beat the next, who beat the third. yes, i know, four over a three year old.

We need a poll option so we can do a knockoff of the ESPN NOW deal. Since good horses hardly run anymore, what better way to get excited about the game than have a popularity contest?

[cowgirlintexas]

Well my "favorite" is Cigar... I just loved to watch him lower that head and go for it. Heck, I get goosebumps even now thinking about him running. He did allot for racing and helping to bring in new fans and that is always a Big + for racing as did most of the other horses that are being mentioned... This will always be a matter of opinion and the "best" will never get a 100% of the votes.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

We need a poll option so we can do a knockoff of the ESPN NOW deal. Since good horses hardly run anymore, what better way to get excited about the game than have a popularity contest?

oh please no. i thought that espn now thing was stupid.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Personally, I think Risen Star may have been the best since The Bid but he never got to prove it...to many "ifs" but the Star's Belmont (on three good hooves) was a sight to see! Likewise, I rank Secretariat and Kincsem at the top of my "all time" list yet there is no way to prove they belong any more than others. The "who did he/she beat" argument is a bit meaningless to me...who did Man O War beat? Certainly I can argue that he ducked the best of his generation...Exterminator. He did handle a worn-down Sir Barton. Ribot destroyed all he faced but what was their quality? Fun discussion but simply a matter of personal opinion.

Nah the 'ducked Exterminator' bit actually isn't legitimate as a flaw for Man O'War based on what we now know. I highly recommend the book by Dorothy Ours for MOW info and I believe that's where I read this (I'm not at home right now and don't have the book with me to double check but I'm pretty sure about it). It's actually a misconception that's been going on for awhile. Exterminator could've been in the match race with Sir Barton and MOW but there was a caveat, he would only be in it if the race were longer (not that they liked the location either but it was mainly a distance question). Once the other two owners settled on preferred distance, it meant Exterminator would be at a disadvantage. Now if you wanted them to face each other at 1 1/2 to 2 miles we can argue the best horse (except we're not really comparing these other great horses for their ability to get 2 miles) but his owners were definitely not going to go up against MOW and Sir Barton at anything like 1 1/4 or lower. They made that decision so I'll argue that Exterminator actually ducked MOW, not the other way around. They did try to work out a three-horse race. I think they should've gone for it. Exterminator probably would've beaten a sore-hooved Sir Barton that day which ain't chump change since he was still a talented horse. Might've actually made MOW break a sweat. As it was there was really no contest.

Colin and Fair Play don't get enough attention. Talk about guts and talent. All that sparring and finally Fair Play managed to run Colin off his feet at the end, Colin still won, and got so fried it was a Pyhrric victory.

[_ed_]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Nah the 'ducked Exterminator' bit actually isn't legitimate as a flaw for Man O'War based on what we now know. I highly recommend the book by Dorothy Ours for MOW info and I believe that's where I read this (I'm not at home right now and don't have the book with me to double check but I'm pretty sure about it). It's actually a misconception that's been going on for awhile. Exterminator could've been in the match race with Sir Barton and MOW but there was a caveat, he would only be in it if the race were longer (not that they liked the location either but it was mainly a distance question). Once the other two owners settled on preferred distance, it meant Exterminator would be at a disadvantage. Now if you wanted them to face each other at 1 1/2 to 2 miles we can argue the best horse (except we're not really comparing these other great horses for their ability to get 2 miles) but his owners were definitely not going to go up against MOW and Sir Barton at anything like 1 1/4 or lower. They made that decision so I'll argue that Exterminator actually ducked MOW, not the other way around.

Yeah the book did say that, just finished reading it last week myself. Great read it was too.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by _ed_

Yeah the book did say that, just finished reading it last week myself. Great read it was too.

What do you think about all the drug use?

[_ed_]

I found that quite disturbing, had no idea that sort of thing took place to such an extent.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Nah the 'ducked Exterminator' bit actually isn't legitimate as a flaw for Man O'War based on what we now know. I highly recommend the book by Dorothy Ours for MOW info and I believe that's where I read this (I'm not at home right now and don't have the book with me to double check but I'm pretty sure about it). It's actually a misconception that's been going on for awhile. Exterminator could've been in the match race with Sir Barton and MOW but there was a caveat, he would only be in it if the race were longer (not that they liked the location either but it was mainly a distance question). Once the other two owners settled on preferred distance, it meant Exterminator would be at a disadvantage. Now if you wanted them to face each other at 1 1/2 to 2 miles we can argue the best horse (except we're not really comparing these other great horses for their ability to get 2 miles) but his owners were definitely not going to go up against MOW and Sir Barton at anything like 1 1/4 or lower. They made that decision so I'll argue that Exterminator actually ducked MOW, not the other way around. They did try to work out a three-horse race. I think they should've gone for it. Exterminator probably would've beaten a sore-hooved Sir Barton that day which ain't chump change since he was still a talented horse. Might've actually made MOW break a sweat. As it was there was really no contest.

Colin and Fair Play don't get enough attention. Talk about guts and talent. All that sparring and finally Fair Play managed to run Colin off his feet at the end, Colin still won, and got so fried it was a Pyhrric victory.

i believe they also didn't like the thought of weight for age, the gelding would have been giving weight to the original big red.