Arlignton Poly

[Riot]

Originally Posted by JJP

Getting back to the comment that Americans are always complaining or whining or whatever was said, it should be pointed out comparing our synthetic racing to Europe's is ridiculous.

We Americans were "sold" on the idea that this would be dirt racing, just safer. The Euros had nothing to compare it to, since they've never had conventional dirt. They were getting a chance to race in the winter, when they wouldn't otherwise. We've had winter racing here for years. And while Poly makes sense for a mostly winter track like Turfway, its plain stupid for tracks like Santa Anita and Keeneland to have it. Almost all the horses with 5 or more races here have established dirt form. When you see a horse like Sun Boat become a graded stakes winner on dirt, or Student Council absolutely bury Lava Man, you know there's something wrong. Its not just the running styles that people don't like; its the lack of transferability of conventional dirt form to synth that is bizarre. And while the strong acceleration of early speedballs and deep closers were admired, it appears those styles will give way to the "preferred" one-paced grinding style that wins so many synth races.

Give me Mountaineer, Ellis, Hawthorne any day over the carpet tracks.

Is the safety and longevity of the horses of any concern to you?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Not to speak for JJP, but it is to me. However, the poly will not cure the fact that the breed is brittle now. Hurt horses will break down no matter what surface they run on.

I don't think anybody has claimed artificial surfaces will cure breeders breeding horses that can't stand up to the rigors of racing.

Let's take a group of completely sound and race-trained horses. Would you like to see the surface they race upon improved to be safer for them, to be less likely to cause injury?

[Riot]

Race horses often wear front shoe toe-grabs. Enables them to grab the track (obviously). If they don't wear them, they generally don't run as fast, as their footing may not be as "sure" on the track. Some horses may seem to slip and slide around a bit, which can vary from track to track according to the surface.

The height of toe grabs are measured in millimeters. A millimeter is very tiny (it's very roughly 1/25 of an inch). "Regular" toe grabs are 6.4 millimeters in height. "High" toe grabs are 9.5 millimeters in height.

These are relatively tiny physical differences to the eye, especially compared to the size of the horse wearing them.

If you were betting on a certain horse at Mountaineer repeatedly, you might be surprised if he suddenly couldn't seem to get ahold of the track, and put in a bad performance, if he ran up the track? What if you learned his trainer didn't use his usual toe grabs for that effort?

There is a model rule to ban toe grabs over 4 millimeters in height.

Would you vote in favor of this rule, seeing that the horse you bet on may suddenly, without the regular or high toe grabs he's used to, flounder around and run up the track?

It has been found (by a researcher at UC Davis) that a race horse wearing high toe grabs is 16 times more likely to suffer a catastrophic breakdown. That's due to the toe grabs alone - not any predisposing factors.

Should a ban on toe grabs greater than 4 millimeters be supported?

How will gamblers react, if this rule is put into place universally, when certain horses who always "ran well" now can't seem to pull off the same performance repeatedly under the new rules?

Should we rather just keep the high toe grabs, and, "try to make the dirt surfaces safer" ?

How would you feel if you owned a race horse, and your trainer regularly put high toe grabs on your horse?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

Race horses often wear front shoe toe-grabs. Enables them to grab the track (obviously). If they don't wear them, they generally don't run as fast, as their footing may not be as "sure" on the track. Some horses may seem to slip and slide around a bit, which can vary from track to track according to the surface.

The height of toe grabs are measured in millimeters. A millimeter is very tiny (it's very roughly 1/25 of an inch). "Regular" toe grabs are 6.4 millimeters in height. "High" toe grabs are 9.5 millimeters in height.

These are relatively tiny physical differences to the eye, especially compared to the size of the horse wearing them.

If you were betting on a certain horse at Mountaineer repeatedly, you might be surprised if he suddenly couldn't seem to get ahold of the track, and put in a bad performance, if he ran up the track? What if you learned his trainer didn't use his usual toe grabs for that effort?

There is a model rule to ban toe grabs over 4 millimeters in height.

Would you vote in favor of this rule, seeing that the horse you bet on may suddenly, without the regular or high toe grabs he's used to, flounder around and run up the track?

It has been found (by a researcher at UC Davis) that a race horse wearing high toe grabs is 16 times more likely to suffer a catastrophic breakdown. That's due to the toe grabs alone - not any predisposing factors.

Should a ban on toe grabs greater than 4 millimeters be supported?

How will gamblers react, if this rule is put into place universally, when certain horses who always "ran well" now can't seem to pull off the same performance repeatedly under the new rules?

Should we rather just keep the high toe grabs, and, "try to make the dirt surfaces safer" ?

How would you feel if you owned a race horse, and your trainer regularly put high toe grabs on your horse?

i've read several studies on toe grabs, i think they should be done away with. was not happy when woodbine caved and allowed them after initially saying NO. chrb has been back and forth on it. they should not be--but part of the problem would be owners who have horses who run on them, and don't want to do away with them--which makes you wonder just how much 'horse' is in those horsemen! and how much is $$$.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i've read several studies on toe grabs, i think they should be done away with. was not happy when woodbine caved and allowed them after initially saying NO. chrb has been back and forth on it. they should not be--but part of the problem would be owners who have horses who run on them, and don't want to do away with them--which makes you wonder just how much 'horse' is in those horsemen! and how much is $$$.

I have yet to see one of these studies and until I do I remain skeptical about their claims. I know a few real horseman that not only like toegrabs but regularly use mud caulks even on dry tracks. 2 guys you may have heard of. Jerkens and Zito.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I have yet to see one of these studies and until I do I remain skeptical about their claims. I know a few real horseman that not only like toegrabs but regularly use mud caulks even on dry tracks. 2 guys you may have heard of. Jerkens and Zito.

Sigh ... I'm just going to have to get you subscriptions to the Equine Veterinary Journal and American Journal of Veterinary Research so you can keep up with it all!

PS - always bet the horse wearing mud calks

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Sigh ... I'm just going to have to get you subscriptions to the Equine Veterinary Journal and American Journal of Veterinary Research so you can keep up with it all!

PS - always bet the horse wearing mud calks

Where do they get their data?

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I have yet to see one of these studies and until I do I remain skeptical about their claims. I know a few real horseman that not only like toegrabs but regularly use mud caulks even on dry tracks. 2 guys you may have heard of. Jerkens and Zito.

Contessa almost ALWAYS uses mud caulks, especially on the inner track. I asked him about it and he said it's the only way the horses can grip on the half-frozen dirt in the winter. Makes sense to me.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I have yet to see one of these studies and until I do I remain skeptical about their claims. I know a few real horseman that not only like toegrabs but regularly use mud caulks even on dry tracks. 2 guys you may have heard of. Jerkens and Zito.

it's not whether people like to use them or not, it's whether they should. no doubt horsemen who use them like them.

the article i read most recently showed the angle of a horses foot with and without toe grabs and the subsequent effects on his foot as well as his leg. talked about incidents of injury and such. i also know that woodbine banned them, and then allowed them back up to a certain size due to their problems with the poly last winter. seems a controversial issue--but then what isn't on the track these days?