Lava Man

[philcski]

Originally Posted by whodey17

I love when people complain when a horse like Student Council wins a grade I on a synthetic surface but when horses like Wilko, Sarava, Sinister Minister, Lemons Forever win a Grade I then a long shot wins the race. Also, there was only 1 Grade I winner in the Pacific Classic field (I believe). Would a victory by Times Squared or Big Booster made it better?

You don't get it, do you?

It has nothing to do with the quality of the winner, IMO, who while untested at this level and beaten on the east coast in lower was not much behind the rest of the field besides Lava Man in ability. It has everything to do with the way the race was run and the consistently inconsistent results. there is no way a horse of Lava Man's stature should be staggering down the lane after 6F in nearly 1:15. The track is garbage.

What's interesting to me is I played some Arlington this weekend and it played absolutely fair with a little moisture in the track.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by philcski

You don't get it, do you?

It has nothing to do with the quality of the winner, IMO, who while untested at this level and beaten on the east coast in lower was not much behind the rest of the field besides Lava Man in ability. It has everything to do with the way the race was run and the consistently inconsistent results. there is no way a horse of Lava Man's stature should be staggering down the lane after 6F in nearly 1:15. The track is garbage.

What's interesting to me is I played some Arlington this weekend and it played absolutely fair with a little moisture in the track.

Exactly. I think it has become obvious (or at least it should have) by now that blanket endorsements AND/OR condemnations of polytrack - or any other artificial surface - no longer make sense. Each track has to be taken on its own merit. Arlington's poly surface is pretty fair I believe. Keeneland is bad, and Del Mar is just ridiculous. I almost fell asleep yesterday watching that crap.

[cakes44]

I definitely don't think that Lava Man would be able to handle 12f on grass, but I do think that he'd be able to run the same race as Out of Control did yesterday, except Lava Man would have continued running in the stretch, and supposedly Out of Control is a top miler/middle distance turfer.

[Bobby Fischer]

I don't care that Lava Man lost.

In fact I wagered for him to lose, and I expected him to lose.

I still didn't hit! Everybody and their mother boxed Lava Man and the two Mitchell horses, so the 3-10 exactas were pitiful and I felt they had a decent chance. I didn't want to box 7 horses in an exacta and get a $25 payout. I kept my wagers to a 10cent super and bet 4 horses to win.

Too bad I didn't handicap purely for pedigree. Student Council is simply a solid horse. He has a good pedigree for the surface and had a lot of stamina. Awesome Gem was moving but Student Council had better position.

This surface wasn't exactly kind to closers either. Horses just got exhausted and the couple that could keep going, or took to the track carried on. Gem must have loved the track because he was the only real deep closer.
Sun Boat couldn't swim , and Booster actually ran well to be able to close a little in this type of surface/distance/race

Gem should dominate at a cut back in distance at Del Mar but he won't be a price.

This isn't sour grapes , even if I won i would say this was garbage. Terrible aesthetics! I don't wan't to watch and wager and handicap european polytrack racing.

I honestly believe that the horses from the Arlington Million and Sworddancer would have bested the dirt horses on this surface and distance.

It was a big money-making joke to install these surfaces. All under the guise of "safety". With all the breakdowns on turf will they rip that out and just run polytrack races ONLY? yeah right

Next year the Breeders Cup is going to be on Santa Anita synthetic track...

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

I don't care that Lava Man lost.

In fact I wagered for him to lose, and I expected him to lose.

I still didn't hit! Everybody and their mother boxed Lava Man and the two Mitchell horses, so the 3-10 exactas were pitiful and I felt they had a decent chance. I didn't want to box 7 horses in an exacta and get a $25 payout. I kept my wagers to a 10cent super and bet 4 horses to win.

Too bad I didn't handicap purely for pedigree. Student Council is simply a solid horse. He has a good pedigree for the surface and had a lot of stamina. Awesome Gem was moving but Student Council had better position.

This surface wasn't exactly kind to closers either. Horses just got exhausted and the couple that could keep going, or took to the track carried on. Gem must have loved the track because he was the only real deep closer.
Sun Boat couldn't swim , and Booster actually ran well to be able to close a little in this type of surface/distance/race

Gem should dominate at a cut back in distance at Del Mar but he won't be a price.

This isn't sour grapes , even if I won i would say this was garbage. Terrible aesthetics! I don't wan't to watch and wager and handicap european polytrack racing.

I honestly believe that the horses from the Arlington Million and Sworddancer would have bested the dirt horses on this surface and distance.

It was a big money-making joke to install these surfaces. All under the guise of "safety". With all the breakdowns on turf will they rip that out and just run polytrack races ONLY? yeah right

Next year the Breeders Cup is going to be on Santa Anita synthetic track...

Yes, and I agree that that is rather unfortunate. I wish they wouldn't run BC races on that stuff, BUT as I said earlier, it is important to remember that Santa Anita and Del Mar aren't going to play the same way simply because they both have polytrack. I think it is fair to assume that they will be breaking 2:07 in next year's BCC.

[cmorioles]

To judge Lava Man off this race is just silly. The horse will do just fine on dirt or turf next time. Unless today's race is on poly/cushion, just draw a line through all those Hol/AP/Kee/Dmr/TP/WO races. You'll make yourself some cash.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

To judge Lava Man off this race is just silly. The horse will do just fine on dirt or turf next time. Unless today's race is on poly/cushion, just draw a line through all those Hol/AP/Kee/Dmr/TP/WO races. You'll make yourself some cash.

I see what you are saying, but do you really think the racing at Arlington and Hollywood is even comparable to the so-called "racing" going on at Del Mar and Keeneland.

[Unstable]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Yes, and I agree that that is rather unfortunate. I wish they wouldn't run BC races on that stuff, BUT as I said earlier, it is important to remember that Santa Anita and Del Mar aren't going to play the same way simply because they both have polytrack. I think it is fair to assume that they will be breaking 2:07 in next year's BCC.

Santa Anita is installing Cushion Track (the same stuff used at Hollywood). Hopefully, they will listen to the people at Hollywood on how to maintain a fair surface. Unlike the jokers at Del Mar, who are going to run the whole meet and then decide what to do. I think I have bet 1 race at Del Mar this year so far. If I wanted a crap shoot, I'd go to Las Vegas.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Unstable

Santa Anita is installing Cushion Track (the same stuff used at Hollywood). Hopefully, they will listen to the people at Hollywood on how to maintain a fair surface. Unlike the jokers at Del Mar, who are going to run the whole meet and then decide what to do. I think I have bet 1 race at Del Mar this year so far. If I wanted a crap shoot, I'd go to Las Vegas.

That is what would make sense. I don't think anyone expected that they would get it exactly right from the start. But the comments from Harper that he wasn't going to do anything to the track till after the meet were irresponsible, IMO. I think that they should listen to the concerns of the horsemen and tinker around with it during the meet, like the other tracks have done, to get it to a consistent level. But it's like they don't want to admit that it's not totally maintenance free. It feels like if they admit that, they think they would be admitting failure and that's just not the case. It's a work in progress and should be treated as such.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Yes, and I agree that that is rather unfortunate. I wish they wouldn't run BC races on that stuff, BUT as I said earlier, it is important to remember that Santa Anita and Del Mar aren't going to play the same way simply because they both have polytrack. I think it is fair to assume that they will be breaking 2:07 in next year's BCC.

isn't santa anita going with cushion track??? that's what hollywood has...hate to be difficult, but all artificial surfaces are NOT polytrack-which is a brand name. much like tapeta, or of course cushion--which horsemen liked just fine at hollywood.

or maybe everyone can just hire hollywoods track super and crew!

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Danzig

isn't santa anita going with cushion track??? that's what hollywood has.

Yes, which was basically the point I was trying to make to "Bobby Fischer" before. Just because Santa Anita has artificial and Del Mar has artificial doesn't mean that the '08 BC is going to look like this meet at Del Mar (thankfully). Even each polytrack plays differently, and the difference between cushion and poly seem substantial. Just ask AP Xcellent and Lava Man.

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by philcski

You don't get it, do you?

It has nothing to do with the quality of the winner, IMO, who while untested at this level and beaten on the east coast in lower was not much behind the rest of the field besides Lava Man in ability. It has everything to do with the way the race was run and the consistently inconsistent results. there is no way a horse of Lava Man's stature should be staggering down the lane after 6F in nearly 1:15. The track is garbage.

What's interesting to me is I played some Arlington this weekend and it played absolutely fair with a little moisture in the track.

I totally get it. The race was run exactly how every other race has been run at Del Mar. Horses on the lead or near the lead have a difficult time winning the race. The consistency in Del Mar is that right now it seems to be inconsistent. Turfway and Keeneland were inconsistant at first, but with some good notes and some good data one can make money at Del Mar in the future. I could care less what time the race was clocked in, as long as my selection comes in first.

I do agree with you that there should be some moisture put into these synthetic surfaces.

[sumitas]

It's the same track for all. I don't see a need for moisture, that's a waste of water. The times are a relative thing. Only relative to Del Mar, not other tracks.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by sumitas

It's the same track for all. I don't see a need for moisture, that's a waste of water. The times are a relative thing. Only relative to Del Mar, not other tracks.

Some horses can run on the shiat and some can't. That was pretty obvious.

[smuthg]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Some horses can run on the shiat and some can't. That was pretty obvious.

Agreed... I've had nothing but respect for him since the Pacific Classic in '04... That's the type of race that ends most "good" horses career, and he's won I think 6 Grade 1's since then...