What Kind of Hit Will Racing Take If Barbaro Dies?

[Danzig]

but you can't judge what happened THEN (the gate and subsequent check out by the vet) by what we know happened after. it's a shame that some will go back and point at that incident as the pivotal moment. esp since it isn't.
and yes, much like pearl harbor 'historians' who say by using all the info collected AFTER the bombing, and knowing the japanese did indeed bomb us and destroy much of our fleet, and by using tremendous HIND sight that we 'SHOULD HAVE KNOWN ALL ALONG' there will be those who say that the gate crew/pimlico/magna rushed the job....but they'll still be incorrect.

Originally Posted by Danzig188

but you can't judge what happened THEN (the gate and subsequent check out by the vet) by what we know happened after. it's a shame that some will go back and point at that incident as the pivotal moment. esp since it isn't.
and yes, much like pearl harbor 'historians' who say by using all the info collected AFTER the bombing, and knowing the japanese did indeed bomb us and destroy much of our fleet, and by using tremendous HIND sight that we 'SHOULD HAVE KNOWN ALL ALONG' there will be those who say that the gate crew/pimlico/magna rushed the job....but they'll still be incorrect.

Precisely.

[sumitas]

The Barbaro tragedy and the Arlington scandal are exposing this game for the real problems that exist. That is the welfare of the horse does not matter when it comes to the business of the tracks.

And this is just not acceptable and must be stopped.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by sumitas

The Barbaro tragedy and the Arlington scandal are exposing this game for the real problems that exist. That is the welfare of the horse does not matter when it comes to the business of the tracks.

And this is just not acceptable and must be stopped.

just wondering if you could explain how it's the tracks fault that barbaro took a bad step?

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by sumitas

The Barbaro tragedy and the Arlington scandal are exposing this game for the real problems that exist. That is the welfare of the horse does not matter when it comes to the business of the tracks.

And this is just not acceptable and must be stopped.

Sumitas,
You and I go way back. I like you.
You have knowledge about breeding that others dream of having.
I also don't like the break downs...not the least.
Hey, I know some people that watch NASCAR just waiting for a crash. To some people, it gives them something. To me it's very sad.
As far as Barbaro is concerned, in my humble opinion, it wasn't the track or lack of vet check. It was a bad step. Lots will say, we shoulda, coulda...
but that doesn't address the reality of the "now".
As far as Arlington, there is an ongoing investigation. There's also a good article at the bottom of the Bloodhorse page. Worth reading.
No owners or trainers want to see their horses run hurt.
Yes, horse racing is a business. I don't see a connect between Barbaro and Arlington.
Although some things are unacceptable, like with all things, there is risk.
There really ARE people looking into ways to prevent tragedies.
Most of those that I know in the business get no joy from watching a crash.
They DO have the best interests of their horses first and foremost.
When something bad happens, everyone is sad.
When something good happens, well, the risks are forgotten, and smiles abound. That's racing. It's like asking a bettor if he remembers a day of bad bets or a day when he scored big.
Just my two pennies worth.
Still like you.
DTS

Horse racing from the birth of a horse to the death of a horse is not very humane. The good horses are taken care, but are treated like prisoners. Go to any breeding farm and you see a horse in a stall that is like 10x10. The horse it let out for sex and maybe 1 hour of exercise a day in the pasture. The horse is treated like a prisoner. The racing aspect is even worse, you pump the horse full of drugs, barely feed it, put a person on its back and whip it so it can cross the finish line 1st. Horse racing isnt for the horse, it is for a human's pleasure. Everyone on this board love horses and there is no disputing that. However, would some of us still love the horses if there wasnt racing involved. Would we even care about horses if someone didnt introduce us to horse wagering? For me the answer is yes. I struggle with this all the time. If I love something, I want the best for them. I think horses love to race and compete. I really believe there is an inate characteristic in horses to compete. But, I don't think horses appreciate having their testicles cut off, being whipped, being drugged and only eating the amount that keeps them best fit. I would love to see the day where whips are out-lawed in horse racing, I would love to see the day where horses can roam freely in the pasture instead of being locked up in a small stall. Take the money and gambling out of horse racing and we would see how many people trule love horses.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Horse racing from the birth of a horse to the death of a horse is not very humane. The good horses are taken care, but are treated like prisoners. Go to any breeding farm and you see a horse in a stall that is like 10x10. The horse it let out for sex and maybe 1 hour of exercise a day in the pasture. The horse is treated like a prisoner. The racing aspect is even worse, you pump the horse full of drugs, barely feed it, put a person on its back and whip it so it can cross the finish line 1st. Horse racing isnt for the horse, it is for a human's pleasure. Everyone on this board love horses and there is no disputing that. However, would some of us still love the horses if there wasnt racing involved. Would we even care about horses if someone didnt introduce us to horse wagering? For me the answer is yes. I struggle with this all the time. If I love something, I want the best for them. I think horses love to race and compete. I really believe there is an inate characteristic in horses to compete. But, I don't think horses appreciate having their testicles cut off, being whipped, being drugged and only eating the amount that keeps them best fit. I would love to see the day where whips are out-lawed in horse racing, I would love to see the day where horses can roam freely in the pasture instead of being locked up in a small stall. Take the money and gambling out of horse racing and we would see how many people trule love horses.

i follow horse racing because i love horses. i can count on one hand the amount of times i've gone to see live racing and put bets down. yeah, the sport could use a few changes, it wouldn't break my heart to never see a whip in a jocks hand again. i think drugs are overused and abused. on the other hand, these horses are actually pampered and petted, and receive daily exercise and the best care. they outlive by decades their counterparts in the wild. many of them live in better housing than most adults! horses aren't fed 'just enough' to keep them fit. they get top notch feed and hay morning, noon, night and the middle of the night.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Horse racing from the birth of a horse to the death of a horse is not very humane. The good horses are taken care, but are treated like prisoners. Go to any breeding farm and you see a horse in a stall that is like 10x10. The horse it let out for sex and maybe 1 hour of exercise a day in the pasture. The horse is treated like a prisoner. The racing aspect is even worse, you pump the horse full of drugs, barely feed it, put a person on its back and whip it so it can cross the finish line 1st. Horse racing isnt for the horse, it is for a human's pleasure. Everyone on this board love horses and there is no disputing that. However, would some of us still love the horses if there wasnt racing involved. Would we even care about horses if someone didnt introduce us to horse wagering? For me the answer is yes. I struggle with this all the time. If I love something, I want the best for them. I think horses love to race and compete. I really believe there is an inate characteristic in horses to compete. But, I don't think horses appreciate having their testicles cut off, being whipped, being drugged and only eating the amount that keeps them best fit. I would love to see the day where whips are out-lawed in horse racing, I would love to see the day where horses can roam freely in the pasture instead of being locked up in a small stall. Take the money and gambling out of horse racing and we would see how many people trule love horses.

Eurobounce, your points on cruelty are well taken, but I think maybe you're a little off the mark in terms of feeding and use of whips and turn-out. Thoroughbreds can't really be left out all day because they'll wear themselves out-- if they spend the day racing each other along the fences of their pastures (wasn't it said even into his 20s Man O' War would still try to race the young 'uns?) they'll have nothing left for the races.

Horses of any profession have to have their diets monitored-- horses will happily eat themselves to death if given the chance. They aren't stupid; they evolved into plains-roaming animals that subsisted on a diet of very few calories, so they had to eat all day long. Just because they now have high-calorie, commercially produced feed doesn't break all those millenia of conditioning to eat as much as they can whenever they can (actually, I think people have some of the same issues-- I don't think the urge to overeat is as much emotional as it is evolutionary, which makes it much harder to overcome!). And whips can be punishment, yes, but judiciously used, they are encouragement-- a reminder to keep focused and now it's time to go go go! They also can get a horse to steer rapidly away from a bad situation. I'm purely a pleasure rider and I NEVER go out without a crop, even if I don't use it. And I'm sure not racing anybody, especially on poky old Bach (long story-- my morning ride today...).

But you're right; overuse of the whip is mean and unnecessary and I think there could be more rules against excessive whip use. And honestly, I think one of the best things racing could do is to cut back the racing schedule-- give the horses several months off where they CAN run around all day and graze and just be horses. Overwork is no fun for anyone.

And no stallions at stud before the age of five! (Someone said that on the ESPN board and it was much lauded) If you have to keep them fit and sound until then I think people would breed for soundness and maybe they'd race longer.

Whipping?

Utter nonsense.

Some race horses ... who are the contenders in a race ... get a a few seconds worth of smacks every few weeks on average. Some get nothing at all.

I don't think a horse's rump or psyche are so fragile ... that they can't handle a very occasional dose of stinging. It beats the heck out of being attacked by a pack of wolves.

This thread should be featured on the next Oprah.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Eurobounce, your points on cruelty are well taken, but I think maybe you're a little off the mark in terms of feeding and use of whips and turn-out. Thoroughbreds can't really be left out all day because they'll wear themselves out-- if they spend the day racing each other along the fences of their pastures (wasn't it said even into his 20s Man O' War would still try to race the young 'uns?) they'll have nothing left for the races.

Horses of any profession have to have their diets monitored-- horses will happily eat themselves to death if given the chance. They aren't stupid; they evolved into plains-roaming animals that subsisted on a diet of very few calories, so they had to eat all day long. Just because they now have high-calorie, commercially produced feed doesn't break all those millenia of conditioning to eat as much as they can whenever they can (actually, I think people have some of the same issues-- I don't think the urge to overeat is as much emotional as it is evolutionary, which makes it much harder to overcome!). And whips can be punishment, yes, but judiciously used, they are encouragement-- a reminder to keep focused and now it's time to go go go! They also can get a horse to steer rapidly away from a bad situation. I'm purely a pleasure rider and I NEVER go out without a crop, even if I don't use it. And I'm sure not racing anybody, especially on poky old Bach (long story-- my morning ride today...).

But you're right; overuse of the whip is mean and unnecessary and I think there could be more rules against excessive whip use. And honestly, I think one of the best things racing could do is to cut back the racing schedule-- give the horses several months off where they CAN run around all day and graze and just be horses. Overwork is no fun for anyone.

And no stallions at stud before the age of five! (Someone said that on the ESPN board and it was much lauded) If you have to keep them fit and sound until then I think people would breed for soundness and maybe they'd race longer.

Good points Genuine,
I'll just add that the horses at the farm where mine live get fed four times a day if they're in the stall. Not all at once. One or two flakes distributed morning to night so they don't get sick. Plenty of fresh water, transition to greens (pasture)...too much will cause problems also, if they're not used to it.
As far as whipping...it's always a good idea to have one so that the horse knows who's in control. If they sense that you aren't...you'll get hurt quickly.
Same with a chain over the nose (or on the gums).
There are times that I've seen the whip used too much. No question.
If a horse is already dog tired, do you think hitting him twenty times is going to make him run any faster? Me neither.
As far as "breeding for soundness", that's something I've been trying to do for quite a while. It goes against the "current", blazing furlongs by 2yo's at the sales...but it's just the way I am. I'd rather have 'em last longer than make a fast buck. To each his own.
Good stables are not cruel. Actually, believe it or not, these folks show they care every day.
DTS

[Buffymommy]

Horses of any profession have to have their diets monitored-- horses will happily eat themselves to death if given the chance. They aren't stupid; they evolved into plains-roaming animals that subsisted on a diet of very few calories, so they had to eat all day long. Just because they now have high-calorie, commercially produced feed doesn't break all those millenia of conditioning to eat as much as they can whenever they can (actually, I think people have some of the same issues-- I don't think the urge to overeat is as much emotional as it is evolutionary, which makes it much harder to overcome!). And whips can be punishment, yes, but judiciously used, they are encouragement-- a reminder to keep focused and now it's time to go go go! They also can get a horse to steer rapidly away from a bad situation. I'm purely a pleasure rider and I NEVER go out without a crop, even if I don't use it. And I'm sure not racing anybody, especially on poky old Bach (long story-- my morning ride today...).

Obviously you (EURO not Genuine) didn't see the photos and videos of Barbaro after the derby in his paddock eating grass. They let him be a horse.

To your question, would I love horses if there was no racing? abso-fukking-lutely! My love of horses got me into the sport. As I have stated in the past, I don't watch racing to bet, I watch for the love of watching a horse do what it was born to do RUN.

As for the crop issue, I (LIKE GENUINE) carry a crop EVERY time I ride. Most of the time all I do is wave it around for Buck to see. Just kinda reminds him to pay attention to me and not the hay truck moving back at the barn. MOST riders carry one. I even use to wear spurs when I rode Freddy. OH BAD GIRL I AM. Honestly, anyone at the barn where I am at can tell you they would let me ride, take care of, etc... anyone of their horses. When Freddy's owner found out I wasn't going to be riding him anymore they said "But she's family". Yes, whips can be bad, but anything can be bad in the wrong hands.

All points of eating are good ones. But we all know the horse that is in racing condition is underfed to keep him fit and light on his feet. Horses will overeat if given the opportunity. If you think that race horses are treated like kings, try living the life of a horse for 1 year. Move into a room that is 10x10 and spend 20 hours a day there, be fed when someone tells you to be fed, be whipped when being trained and then come back to me and tell me how you like it. Sure most horses have a better chance in captivity but sometimes nature has to take its course.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

All points of eating are good ones. But we all know the horse that is in racing condition is underfed to keep him fit and light on his feet. Horses will overeat if given the opportunity. If you think that race horses are treated like kings, try living the life of a horse for 1 year. Move into a room that is 10x10 and spend 20 hours a day there, be fed when someone tells you to be fed, be whipped when being trained and then come back to me and tell me how you like it. Sure most horses have a better chance in captivity but sometimes nature has to take its course.

Euro,
You and I have chatted before.
I'll tell you, horses are not underfed, nor are they overfed...if they are being closely monitored.
To have energy, the food must be put in and shoveled out later. In the real world, nobody will do anything to compromise any chances for putting out the horse's best effort.
Have you ever been on the backstretch? If you have, you might have noticed that they have fans blowing cool air when it's warm, feed supplements, on and on....
Heck, they're better treated than some of the folks that live in nursing homes.
Yes, there are heavy handed training methods. Some people get freaked and escalate difficult situations when the horse is just plain scared...and problems result. Just remember, most of the people that are around horses, day in and day out, know them pretty well...and the last thing they want to do is be cruel, mean, or inhumane to them. Most of these people love horses. If they didn't, they would have chosen a different form of employment.

[todko]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Horse racing from the birth of a horse to the death of a horse is not very humane. The good horses are taken care, but are treated like prisoners. Go to any breeding farm and you see a horse in a stall that is like 10x10. The horse it let out for sex and maybe 1 hour of exercise a day in the pasture. The horse is treated like a prisoner. The racing aspect is even worse, you pump the horse full of drugs, barely feed it, put a person on its back and whip it so it can cross the finish line 1st. Horse racing isnt for the horse, it is for a human's pleasure. Everyone on this board love horses and there is no disputing that. However, would some of us still love the horses if there wasnt racing involved. Would we even care about horses if someone didnt introduce us to horse wagering? For me the answer is yes. I struggle with this all the time. If I love something, I want the best for them. I think horses love to race and compete. I really believe there is an inate characteristic in horses to compete. But, I don't think horses appreciate having their testicles cut off, being whipped, being drugged and only eating the amount that keeps them best fit. I would love to see the day where whips are out-lawed in horse racing, I would love to see the day where horses can roam freely in the pasture instead of being locked up in a small stall. Take the money and gambling out of horse racing and we would see how many people trule love horses.

Euro,

And you're the same guy who says you have horses running at Turfway? In this cruel sport? How can you say those things and sleep at night?

I agree. You would of thought the President died today. No one likes to see tragedy but if your in this sport long enough it will happen. GO FOR WAND was brutal. Jumped and that was it. Still remember the race. Everyone will forget and remember in their own way. Still just another horse that was breed to do what it did best. If your that upset about death send the troops over seas a gift, a card something. To argue about a horse that broke down is astounding to me. I cried when my dog died. I was 12, life goes on. No one did anything wrong. The Jacksons did their best. Trust me there will be more Barbaro's.