Presque Isle Downs - Nice Purses

[scanman]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think tracks should exist if wagering does not support them.

That being the case, then surely, Presque Isle Downs would have never come into existence.

As most people know, Mountaineer Gaming is only using the track as a means to generate income from the slots in an area where no slot gambling is available. A smart investment move by Mountaineer.

Did racing need another track in northwestern PA? Absolutely not. With 7 tracks within a 5 hour drive (Penn National, Mountaineer, Thistledowns, Beulah Park, Finger Lakes, Woodbine and Fort Erie), why in the world would racing need another track in an area where tracks already struggle to fill their races? It doesn't. But since Presque Isle Downs will become a reality, let's look at the positive effects it will have on racing.

1) Excellent purses that will benefit everyone involved in racing (owners, trainers, jocks, stable staff)
2) Economic boost to the agricultural industry in the area, as well as a positive employment impact.

Will it generate great racing? Doubtful. Have to wait and see. Surely the large purses will/should attract better horses, but next year when they run their meeting (May-Sep) they will be competing against Bel/Sar, WO, AP and to a lesser degree Pen, Pha, Del and Mth. Just not enough good horses to go around, so yeah, racing will be diluted. But I don't see where that's a big deal, because a genuine fan should/will appreciate racing at all levels. Racing is racing. Within the last year I've witnessed great enthusiam for racing equally in the grandstands at the "great" Churchill Downs and the "lowly" Flagstaff.

As far as slots being a prop for racing, (it is), but I don't see a problem with that either. Anything that puts money into racing to keep it going or to stimulate growth is a good thing.

[sumitas]

Here's a paragraph about Tioga Downs, NY, a new harness racino.
http://www.pressconnects.com/apps/pb.../1002/BUSINESS

A couple of months ago Tioga/Vernon Downs petitioned the state to lower the slots takeout so they could compete with Turning Stone (Indian reservation). The state did so because the tracks needed to be on a par with the Indian reservations to survive. Customers were all going to Turning Stone for the bigger and more frequent slots payouts.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by sumitas

Here's a paragraph about Tioga Downs, NY, a new harness racino.
http://www.pressconnects.com/apps/pb.../1002/BUSINESS

A couple of months ago Tioga/Vernon Downs petitioned the state to lower the slots takeout so they could compete with Turning Stone (Indian reservation). The state did so because the tracks needed to be on a par with the Indian reservations to survive. Customers were all going to Turning Stone for the bigger and more frequent slots payouts.

Tioga Downs isn't new, it had been idle for almost 25 years in disrepair on the side of Rte 17. It makes me ill every time I see it, because they were granted a slots license and had their racino up and running within like 18 months, whereas NYRA is at what, 5 years now and no racino?

Personally I hate slot machines but if they help racing (and if you don't think the racing is better at MNR or especially DEL post-slots you don't remember the $1500 claimers there) I'm all for it.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by philcski

Tioga Downs isn't new, it had been idle for almost 25 years in disrepair on the side of Rte 17. It makes me ill every time I see it, because they were granted a slots license and had their racino up and running within like 18 months, whereas NYRA is at what, 5 years now and no racino?

Personally I hate slot machines but if they help racing (and if you don't think the racing is better at MNR or especially DEL post-slots you don't remember the $1500 claimers there) I'm all for it.

I do remember those days, especially Mountaineer where we used to ship out of Detroit in the late fall in the 70's. I guess I'd say that with inflation, a nickel claimer today is no better than a $1500 claimer 25 or 30 years ago, so it's arguable the racing has improved.

As for Delaware, what good do all their five and six horse Allowance fields do for the bettors? Nice horses, ok, but in my mind the bettors suffer when these decent horses run at Delaware with their $7,000 pick-3 pools. I guess I look at it a bit different than a lot of folks.

I also have a sore spot for Delaware (and other mid-atlantic tracks) dating back to when they stopped carrying Keeneland's signal when that track tried to reduce takeout on ALL wagers to 16% stating their own handle would suffer. Keeneland relented. The bettors get the short end. I digress.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by scanman

That being the case, then surely, Presque Isle Downs would have never come into existence.

As most people know, Mountaineer Gaming is only using the track as a means to generate income from the slots in an area where no slot gambling is available. A smart investment move by Mountaineer.

Did racing need another track in northwestern PA? Absolutely not. With 7 tracks within a 5 hour drive (Penn National, Mountaineer, Thistledowns, Beulah Park, Finger Lakes, Woodbine and Fort Erie), why in the world would racing need another track in an area where tracks already struggle to fill their races? It doesn't. But since Presque Isle Downs will become a reality, let's look at the positive effects it will have on racing.

1) Excellent purses that will benefit everyone involved in racing (owners, trainers, jocks, stable staff)
2) Economic boost to the agricultural industry in the area, as well as a positive employment impact.

Will it generate great racing? Doubtful. Have to wait and see. Surely the large purses will/should attract better horses, but next year when they run their meeting (May-Sep) they will be competing against Bel/Sar, WO, AP and to a lesser degree Pen, Pha, Del and Mth. Just not enough good horses to go around, so yeah, racing will be diluted. But I don't see where that's a big deal, because a genuine fan should/will appreciate racing at all levels. Racing is racing. Within the last year I've witnessed great enthusiam for racing equally in the grandstands at the "great" Churchill Downs and the "lowly" Flagstaff.

As far as slots being a prop for racing, (it is), but I don't see a problem with that either. Anything that puts money into racing to keep it going or to stimulate growth is a good thing.

Like I said earlier, people getting paid is a good thing. But diluting racing is a very bad thing for the bettors. When you say "Everyone involved benefits," how exactly do bettors benefit?

[scanman]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

When you say "Everyone involved benefits," how exactly do bettors benefit?

A fair question.

The immediate benefit to "bettors" is that it is one more track to choose from.
Gambling is relative. There is "value" in every race, if "the bettor" is astute enough to find the value. Considering the variables of the Tapeta surface and horses shipping in from all over the northeast, midwest, kentucky and Canada, it should make selecting a winner pretty challenging. But more than that, it should make for some very interesting racing.

"Bettors" never had it so good. With similcasting and internet wagering, there are hundreds of races for a "bettor" to choose from each day. If you find that Presque Isle Downs doesn't provide the types of races that you like to bet, then move on to a track that you find more adventageous. But at least you will have one more option to choose from and that is definitely a good thing.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by scanman

A fair question.

The immediate benefit to "bettors" is that it is one more track to choose from.
Gambling is relative. There is "value" in every race, if "the bettor" is astute enough to find the value. Considering the variables of the Tapeta surface and horses shipping in from all over the northeast, midwest, kentucky and Canada, it should make selecting a winner pretty challenging. But more than that, it should make for some very interesting racing.

"Bettors" never had it so good. With similcasting and internet wagering, there are hundreds of races for a "bettor" to choose from each day. If you find that Presque Isle Downs doesn't provide the types of races that you like to bet, then move on to a track that you find more adventageous. But at least you will have one more option to choose from and that is definitely a good thing.

I don't need another track to fire at. I'm not the type of wagerer who sits in a simulcast seat flipping my book to the next race going off in two minutes.

The problem for me is that these slot tracks dilute good racing elsewhere at the direct expense of the bettors. Nobody in their right mind will play a p-3 or p-4 at a Pennsylvania track that takes 25-30% of the pool in take out while offering meager pools.

I have no problem with people racing where they can earn the most money. But their gain is the bettors' loss. There's no doubt about that.

[scanman]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

The problem for me is that these slot tracks dilute good racing elsewhere at the direct expense of the bettors.

Give us an example.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by scanman

Give us an example.

lol.

How about Delaware's 7th on Monday? Five horses N2X/$32k optional. WPS Pool $64,000. P-3 pool $7,000.

How about the 5th the day before. Six horses. N3x/$50k. P-3 pool was $9,000 but hey that was DelCap day!

Or, the 7th race the day before that with 5 betting interests. Or the 7th on 7/10.

Or, my favorite, the 8th race on the 10th... n3x/$50k. Four horses. The WPS pool was $42,000. The race after that was a $10,000 Maiden Claimer. The WPS pool was 25% higher.

[scanman]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

lol.

How about Delaware's 7th on Monday? Five horses N2X/$32k optional. WPS Pool $64,000. P-3 pool $7,000.

How about the 5th the day before. Six horses. N3x/$50k. P-3 pool was $9,000 but hey that was DelCap day!

Or, the 7th race the day before that with 5 betting interests. Or the 7th on 7/10.

Or, my favorite, the 8th race on the 10th... n3x/$50k. Four horses. The WPS pool was $42,000. The race after that was a $10,000 Maiden Claimer. The WPS pool was 25% higher.

Okay, not great races and you have a gripe with Delaware. Personally, I think it is one of the gems of the northeast and it would have been tragic if it closed.

Back to your point, to illustrate your thesis - Delaware Park is closed. Where would these horses race?