Corinthian or Bernardini

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I love this game more than anyone but Patrick let me give you an example of what happens when "fans" get attracted to the game, even for a day.
Sundays up here in Saratoga they have giveaway days. T shirts, bobbleheads, etc. Basically everyone within a 50 mile radius heads to the track for the giveaway and maybe stays to watch the races, party, etc.
Trying to get in the place requires a long wait in line, often shutting you out from the first race. The lines at windows are very long and filled with novices who dont know how to bet properly and spend 2 minutes at the window making one show bet. MOre shutting out. Incredible parking problems and traffic, etc. And for what? So a bunch of folks can get a t shirt. Gee thats just swell. They dont bet enough to make a dent in the handle one bit(these "fans" drawn to get their shirts and hats) and probably cost the track more in handle by shutting out players than they make on the handle the "new" fans bet.
Its why regulars have come to dread Sundays at Saratoga.

but when that family shmo hits and ext for 70 bucks hes hooked lol and big betters dont go to family windows ..

[ateamstupid]

I love the always solution-oriented folks who preach about how the sport doesn't need fans, but gamblers.

Well, how the **** are we gonna get gamblers? You're not taking any gamblers away from the casinos, online poker, or anything like that. It's not happening.

We get gamblers by creating new fans, many of whom slowly evolve into gamblers or a combination of the two. That's what happened to me, and I'm pretty sure that's what happened to most of you as well.

There's no way to create horseplayers. You have to create fans first.

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I love the always solution-oriented folks who preach about how the sport doesn't need fans, but gamblers.

Well, how the **** are we gonna get gamblers? You're not taking any gamblers away from the casinos, online poker, or anything like that. It's not happening.

We get gamblers by creating new fans, many of whom slowly evolve into gamblers or a combination of the two. That's what happened to me, and I'm pretty sure that's what happened to most of you as well.

There's no way to create horseplayers. You have to create fans first.

You don't think that bringing racing to them(having it on tv at home on channels like TVG) is a lot easier than bringing them to the races? Bringing racing to them will certainly make new fans a lot quicker than trying to convince someone to go to Aqueduct for the first time.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by oracle80

You don't think that bringing racing to them(having it on tv at home on channels like TVG) is a lot easier than bringing them to the races? Bringing racing to them will certainly make new fans a lot quicker than trying to convince someone to go to Aqueduct for the first time.

I can tell you from personal experience that trying to get a non horse person to watch TVG is impossible--they just don't grasp it. Now, the national coverage is different but is too far and few between...

Originally Posted by oracle80

You don't think that bringing racing to them(having it on tv at home on channels like TVG) is a lot easier than bringing them to the races? Bringing racing to them will certainly make new fans a lot quicker than trying to convince someone to go to Aqueduct for the first time.

Racetracks are great in the morning but terrible during the races. TV is much better. In ten years everyone will have High Definition TV, which will help the game a bit. Racing on HDTV is incredible.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by oracle80

You don't think that bringing racing to them(having it on tv at home on channels like TVG) is a lot easier than bringing them to the races? Bringing racing to them will certainly make new fans a lot quicker than trying to convince someone to go to Aqueduct for the first time.

No, I don't. You have to bring the horses to them. You have to have a product to market. What's the product now? "Come see Horse X run once every three months then go breed more horses made out of glass"?

If I know nothing about the horses (jury's still out on that one), what's making me put on TVG?

Something about the sport has to catch their eye, and it ain't "Check out all the Pick 3 wheels you can do!"

Good horses, good stories, horses who run often, compelling races. That's what attracts fans, and essentially, what attracts gamblers.

And if I'm wrong, give me an alternative solution. Tell me what will create a horseplayer besides creating a fan first.

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

No, I don't. You have to bring the horses to them. You have to have a product to market. What's the product now? "Come see Horse X run once every three months then go breed more horses made out of glass"?

If I know nothing about the horses (jury's still out on that one), what's making me put on TVG?

Something about the sport has to catch their eye, and it ain't "Check out all the Pick 3 wheels you can do!"

Good horses, good stories, horses who run often, compelling races. That's what attracts fans, and essentially, what attracts gamblers.

And if I'm wrong, give me an alternative solution. Tell me what will create a horseplayer besides creating a fan first.

High Def TV will help.

[ateamstupid]

Any non-comedians have any alternative solutions?

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Any non-comedians have any alternative solutions?

Well, ask yourself this, who is a candidate to be a "new wagering fan at the racetrack?"

To me it's the 25-35 year-old single male.

Ask youself... What do I need to do to get 25-35 year-old single males into the track?

Answer: 21-30 year-old females.

Make every day Ladies Day. On the weekends, give them a betting voucher worth $5. I guarantee this will pay for itself.

Learn a little from the NBA. Been to an NBA game lately? Non-stop entertainment. I'm not sure you need an exhibition of several monkeys ****ing a football between every race, but a little music doesn't hurt. Check out Arlington on Fridays....

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by boldruler

High Def TV will help.

why...to get the butts in the seats...they need a better product at bad tracks...i still wont play 2nd tier tracks because they dont have purses that are attractive to good horses..people for the most part want some reliabilty in the fact that the horse they play wont stop or be stiffed ..though even at a good to exellent meet this happens..just no way im betting a 5,000 clmer where all the horses have injuries..and havent won in 2years....i know they have a place in the big picture of racing ..but thats the problem as i see it

[quote=ateamstupid]Tell me what will create a horseplayer besides creating a fan first.QUOTE]

This, my friend, is the $100 billion question that all marketers within the industry are furiously searching for an answer to....this industry has a mountian of challenges and this is the biggest one....In the 21st century, there are so many alternative entertainment options or ways to spend your past time....time is also becoming more and more important and most people have less of it now days than ever before...it is a fast world and when people get a chance to slow down a little they are very selective in their hobbies and horse racing is usually down on the list from most....Also, there are so many other wagering opportunities for the more serious gamers, and the popularity of games like Texas Hold 'Em has basically stolen the spotlight when it comes to the young generation of gamblers....they want non-stop action and don't want to wait 30 minutes between races...Also, Poker is easier to understand for them and they see that as a huge comfortable....horse racing is such a hard sport to learn from a gaming standpoint and that is alos a deterent...there is just so much info and unknowns, and if you are not passionate to learn about it then you won't....the younger generation of gamblers aren't patient enough...they want to have action all the time with something they understand....

This game has a mountain of challenges, and unfortunately, it is just setup to derail itself in a lot of ways....

Here is my idea:

I have thought for years now that some track should attempt to run all of it's 9-10 races on a particular card in 2-2 1/2 hours so that they could shorten it up and treat it like a sporting event like going to a football game....people just don't have all day to sit around an OTB anymore or go to the races for 6 hours on a given afternoon....

You could have action going all the time....when it is 20 minutes to post for the 1st race it is 25 minutes to post for the 2nd and 30 minutes to post for the 3rd...then you take a small intermission to allow people to eat and use the rest room for 30 minutes and then start with the next 3 races in the same fashion and then have another short intermission and then finish strong with the last 3 races of the day and then the card is over for the day (you will have certain setbacks when horses breakdown, etc. that would delay time a little)..

I'm sure there would be opperational issues to iron out...you'd need two or three paddocks, you'd probably have to alternate between the garss and dirt courses each race so the other could get serviced while the other was racing, etc., you may need multiple gate crews and track crews (maybe), and I'm not sure if the jockeys would go for having to race three times in 15-20 minutes without much rest, but who knows...just thinking outside the box and throwing out ideas that could potentially help tracks save on-track attendance and handle...we need to make it more appealing to come to the track....the idea here would be to market going to the races like you would any other sporting event because essentially that is what you'd be doing...it would be like going to a football or basketball game time-wise and alos from the perspective that you would get non-stop action for the most part instead of having to wait for a half hour in between races (which is the biggest complaint I hear about attending teh races)...Also, the track would still get it's alotted amount of time to wager on all races without worrying about time to bet...you'd just teach the customer how to react and wager faster to get down and you would also have to bring the tellers to the bettors by foot or make it easiuer for them to wager so that they would not get shut out.....think about how cool it would be t bet a Pick 3 and be able to get the results from start to finish of three races in 15-20 minutes!!!...Pretty cool concept, huh?

I know this is 'out there' and really bucking tradition, but I really could see this working in certain markets.....it makes a lot of sense...

Anyway, I went off on a rant here, but I think about ways to improve this game ALL day long and it is a serious challenge...

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

[quote=Cunningham Racing]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Tell me what will create a horseplayer besides creating a fan first.QUOTE]

This, my friend, is the $100 billion question that all marketers within the industry are furiously searching for an answer to....this industry has a mountian of challenges and this is the biggest one....In the 21st century, there are so many alternative entertainment options or ways to spend your past time....time is also becoming more and more important and most people have less of it now days than ever before...it is a fast world and when people get a chance to slow down a little they are very selective in their hobbies and horse racing is usually down on the list from most....Also, there are so many other wagering opportunities for the more serious gamers, and the popularity of games like Texas Hold 'Em has basically stolen the spotlight when it comes to the young generation of gamblers....they want non-stop action and don't want to wait 30 minutes between races...Also, Poker is easier to understand for them and they see that as a huge comfortable....horse racing is such a hard sport to learn from a gaming standpoint and that is alos a deterent...there is just so much info and unknowns, and if you are not passionate to learn about it then you won't....the younger generation of gamblers aren't patient enough...they want to have action all the time with something they understand....

This game has a mountain of challenges, and unfortunately, it is just setup to derail itself in a lot of ways....

Here is my idea:

I have thought for years now that some track should attempt to run all of it's 9-10 races on a particular card in 2-2 1/2 hours so that they could shorten it up and treat it like a sporting event like going to a football game....people just don't have all day to sit around an OTB anymore or go to the races for 6 hours on a given afternoon....

You could have action going all the time....when it is 20 minutes to post for the 1st race it is 25 minutes to post for the 2nd and 30 minutes to post for the 3rd...then you take a small intermission to allow people to eat and use the rest room for 30 minutes and then start with the next 3 races in the same fashion and then have another short intermission and then finish strong with the last 3 races of the day and then the card is over for the day (you will have certain setbacks when horses breakdown, etc. that would delay time a little)..

I'm sure there would be opperational issues to iron out...you'd need two or three paddocks, you'd probably have to alternate between the garss and dirt courses each race so the other could get serviced while the other was racing, etc., you may need multiple gate crews and track crews (maybe), and I'm not sure if the jockeys would go for having to race three times in 15-20 minutes without much rest, but who knows...just thinking outside the box and throwing out ideas that could potentially help tracks save on-track attendance and handle...we need to make it more appealing to come to the track....the idea here would be to market going to the races like you would any other sporting event because essentially that is what you'd be doing...it would be like going to a football or basketball game time-wise and alos from the perspective that you would get non-stop action for the most part instead of having to wait for a half hour in between races (which is the biggest complaint I hear about attending teh races)...Also, the track would still get it's alotted amount of time to wager on all races without worrying about time to bet...you'd just teach the customer how to react and wager faster to get down and you would also have to bring the tellers to the bettors by foot or make it easiuer for them to wager so that they would not get shut out.....think about how cool it would be t bet a Pick 3 and be able to get the results from start to finish of three races in 15-20 minutes!!!...Pretty cool concept, huh?

I know this is 'out there' and really bucking tradition, but I really could see this working in certain markets.....it makes a lot of sense...

Anyway, I went off on a rant here, but I think about ways to improve this game ALL day long and it is a serious challenge...

sounds good the tellers must attend a 6 month training course ..and none may be over the age of 40...lol

[SentToStud]

[quote=hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

sounds good the tellers must attend a 6 month training course ..and none may be over the age of 40...lol

lol. At Calder, if you want to be a teller and are under the age of 70, both of your parents have to be working there already.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

I have thought for years now that some track should attempt to run all of it's 9-10 races on a particular card in 2-2 1/2 hours so that they could shorten it up and treat it like a sporting event like going to a football game....people just don't have all day to sit around an OTB anymore or go to the races for 6 hours on a given afternoon...

think about how cool it would be to bet a Pick 3 and be able to get the results from start to finish of three races in 15-20 minutes!!!...Pretty cool concept, huh?

Joel. I think you’re on to something here. The frequency of the action is important to make the game more exciting. I don’t know if it can be pulled off at one track, but if it could it would definitely be interesting. I had an idea that you might be able to pull it off in a simulcasting venue.
Here is my out of the box idea. The goal is to expand horse racing to the casino gaming crowd, to make it an easy exciting fast action game like those in casinos. But racing has a several problems in satisfying this market. Mainly it’s that people that are looking for the action don’t necessary want to explore and understand all the nuances. When they go to the track or OTB now, they’re greeted by a cacophony of screens and sounds, all disjointed and unconnected. Where do you start? Well you go buy a racing form with hundreds of pages of data you don’t understand then you start looking around to find what track you want to play. It’s a high hurdle to the casual gambler.

Here is my idea. I’m sure that many will point out numerous reasons why this won’t work but sometimes its best to go outside the box so to speak.
The product needs to be offered to these kinds of players in a different way. Instead of 30 different live feeds to follow, I propose that a sufficient number of race tracks adhere to a timing schedule that kicks off races at equal intervals that guarantee constant action, let’s just say it’s between 5 and 10 minutes between races. Then there is a single broadcast stream that rolls through the schedule one race at a time. This broadcast has a host that is entertaining, and informative and keeps the attention of the players. I’m picturing a theatre type setting, big High Def screens but the point is that there is one unique display or interface instead of numerous different layouts and announcers. The host is sort of like a bingo host who keeps the game moving along. Players could get a prepaid play card like at a casino then sit down in the theatre and get relatively rapid-fire action. New people could simply grab a simple program with M/L odds, name, jockey, PP# , silk colors and could play their numbers, names, colors, etc. Or they could get a regular program with PP’s.
Another thing I think would help would be to have more of the fractional wagers, dimes, quarters, etc. That way people could play longer on $20 or $40 bucks, I’m picturing the seniors that are camped out in front of the nickel slots.

Anyway the main points are, simple consistent game format (remove the clutter), delivered to the player in a fairly rapid and entertaining fashion, with some unique wagers offered. Also a very important item, reduce the takeout, that is a key.

Of course no one on this board would be interested in this, but it could be a way to tap into the money going into the casinos. The regular existing product would still be available for the die-hards like we have around here.

Just food for thought.

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Joel. I think you’re on to something here. The frequency of the action is important to make the game more exciting. I don’t know if it can be pulled off at one track, but if it could it would definitely be interesting. I had an idea that you might be able to pull it off in a simulcasting venue.
Here is my out of the box idea. The goal is to expand horse racing to the casino gaming crowd, to make it an easy exciting fast action game like those in casinos. But racing has a several problems in satisfying this market. Mainly it’s that people that are looking for the action don’t necessary want to explore and understand all the nuances. When they go to the track or OTB now, they’re greeted by a cacophony of screens and sounds, all disjointed and unconnected. Where do you start? Well you go buy a racing form with hundreds of pages of data you don’t understand then you start looking around to find what track you want to play. It’s a high hurdle to the casual gambler.

Here is my idea. I’m sure that many will point out numerous reasons why this won’t work but sometimes its best to go outside the box so to speak.
The product needs to be offered to these kinds of players in a different way. Instead of 30 different live feeds to follow, I propose that a sufficient number of race tracks adhere to a timing schedule that kicks off races at equal intervals that guarantee constant action, let’s just say it’s between 5 and 10 minutes between races. Then there is a single broadcast stream that rolls through the schedule one race at a time. This broadcast has a host that is entertaining, and informative and keeps the attention of the players. I’m picturing a theatre type setting, big High Def screens but the point is that there is one unique display or interface instead of numerous different layouts and announcers. The host is sort of like a bingo host who keeps the game moving along. Players could get a prepaid play card like at a casino then sit down in the theatre and get relatively rapid-fire action. New people could simply grab a simple program with M/L odds, name, jockey, PP# , silk colors and could play their numbers, names, colors, etc. Or they could get a regular program with PP’s.
Another thing I think would help would be to have more of the fractional wagers, dimes, quarters, etc. That way people could play longer on $20 or $40 bucks, I’m picturing the seniors that are camped out in front of the nickel slots.

Anyway the main points are, simple consistent game format (remove the clutter), delivered to the player in a fairly rapid and entertaining fashion, with some unique wagers offered. Also a very important item, reduce the takeout, that is a key.

Of course no one on this board would be interested in this, but it could be a way to tap into the money going into the casinos. The regular existing product would still be available for the die-hards like we have around here.

Just food for thought.

I think its great to think out of the box and I don't believe that most of our sports top marketers do it well enough...(cough) NTRA..(cough, cough)...

It is absolutely RIDICULOUS for any tracks to be runnnig races on top of each other, especially the bigger circuits that really compete for market share (can't help it with all smaller tracks).....there is plenty of time to spread out between races to show all big tracks in a certain season without running them on top of each other, yet you see bonehead tracks making this mistake all of the time.....I remember working at Fair Grounds two winters ago and I noticed us going off as the same time that Gulfstream Park did in most of the races on the program and it killed our handle - not to mention it probably pissed off simo customers that were basically forced to choose whcih race they wanted to bet on so they could watch the race.....that is a mistake that should NEVER be made....it is bad for the tracks and it is bad for the fans....I agree...

The only real problem about your idea that I see (and its not a bad idea...no ideas are perfect), How do you give them the option to see the post parade to check horses physically to see if they are washed out. etc. if there is only one track to view at a time?

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I love the always solution-oriented folks who preach about how the sport doesn't need fans, but gamblers.

Well, how the **** are we gonna get gamblers? You're not taking any gamblers away from the casinos, online poker, or anything like that. It's not happening.

We get gamblers by creating new fans, many of whom slowly evolve into gamblers or a combination of the two. That's what happened to me, and I'm pretty sure that's what happened to most of you as well.

There's no way to create horseplayers. You have to create fans first.

yeah, I think you do have to be fan to bet horse racing. It's really confusing trying to read a program if you don't know what you are looking at. So many different variable that you don't see with other betting propositions.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I love the always solution-oriented folks who preach about how the sport doesn't need fans, but gamblers.

Well, how the **** are we gonna get gamblers? You're not taking any gamblers away from the casinos, online poker, or anything like that. It's not happening.

We get gamblers by creating new fans, many of whom slowly evolve into gamblers or a combination of the two. That's what happened to me, and I'm pretty sure that's what happened to most of you as well.

There's no way to create horseplayers. You have to create fans first.

Absolutely correct, ateam. The average serious gambler won't even consider horseracing for one reason. The track take is so high. A poker player has to give $2-$4 of the pot to the house when he wins. That's just a few percent. A blackjack player can play within 1/2 % of the house by spending 2 hours learning basic strategy. If she is motivated, she can learn to count cards and actually play with an edge over the house. (even idiot blackjack players find it hard to play with worse than 3% against them. A craps player can also play within 1% of the house. A sportsbettor has to overcome at most a 4.5% "take". Compare that to horseracing's 14-20% takes. Most educated sportsbettors think horseplayers are idiots. (very few sportsbettors understand that the fact that many horseplayers ARE idiots makes the game beatable, despite the high track take)

As ateam suggests, any significant surge of new horseplayers will have to be fed by a surge of fan interest.

--Dunbar