Crazy Ideas

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

And the main reason people race horses at 3? At 4? At 5? Or don't race them at 4? Or 5?

It's all about money for God's sakes.

Thank you for the obvious.

Are there ever attempts to weigh the money against what is over the line cruel to the animal? Seems to me there has been a long history of this conflict. With the two year olds...

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Thank you for the obvious.

Are there ever attempts to weigh the money against what is over the line cruel to the animal? Seems to me there has been a long history of this conflict. With the two year olds...

I'll stick to the opinions of professionals, like Chuck, and pass on your false concerns.

[whodey17]

If you didn't race two year olds, then we would only get to see horses race for one or two years (age 3 and maybe age 4). Two year old racing adds a great deal of excitement to the sport.

Originally Posted by whodey17

If you didn't race two year olds, then we would only get to see horses race for one or two years (age 3 and maybe age 4). Two year old racing adds a great deal of excitement to the sport.

You are correct.

What about shoving everything back a year? When the horses have developed. Run the TC races at 4... Cool no? And better for the animals.

But there would be a cost, to start with. The title of the thread is crazy ideas. I dont think this is actually that crazy. Just thinking about the animals at the expense of money for a year.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by pgardn

You are correct.

What about shoving everything back a year? When the horses have developed. Run the TC races at 4... Cool no? And better for the animals.

But there would be a cost, to start with. The title of the thread is crazy ideas. I dont think this is actually that crazy. Just thinking about the animals at the expense of money for a year.

horses already have the longest generation interval of any domesticated breed of animal...like it or not horseracing is a business first and foremost...pushing things back a year is not good for business. and there are plenty of other breeds and disciplines that train and show 2YO's competitively...

Originally Posted by paisjpq

horses already have the longest generation interval of any domesticated breed of animal...like it or not horseracing is a business first and foremost...pushing things back a year is not good for business. and there are plenty of other breeds and disciplines that train and show 2YO's competitively...

There are a lot of things sacrificed for a year, in hopes that profits will be larger later. Its not like racing is operating beautifully as a business currently.

I love this stuff by the way.

Pile on.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I love this stuff by the way.

Pile on.

I love the posters that post factually inaccurate information, and then when professionals expose its flaws, play the martyr act.

That's the stuff I love!

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by pgardn

There are a lot of things sacrificed for a year, in hopes that profits will be larger later. Its not like racing is operating beautifully as a business currently.

I love this stuff by the way.

Pile on.

you refuse to listen to the very sound data that riot has presented and you don't like the idea that as a business model it won't happen....what exactly are you looking for?
Obviously there are limits to what a 2 YO can do but if you look around you will see them competing in reining competions and barrel racing, they cut cows, saddlebreds and morgans will be shown in harness and under saddle, standardbreds and racing quarters are running...about the only thing people don't do with a very young horse is jumping because that IS bad for them.

[blackthroatedwind]

Out of curiousity, when you buy yearlings or 2YOs, does the cost of training them for a year or two, without racing them competitively, ever seem like too much? Don't get me wrong, I think your real life actions are admirable, but I just wonder if you ever have second thoughts? Believe me, I am most appreciative of the money you put into this game as an owner, and how you coordinate it with your immense care for the animals, but I'm wondering if at least sometimes you don't consider approaching it as more of a business.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Out of curiousity, when you buy yearlings or 2YOs, does the cost of training them for a year or two, without racing them competitively, ever seem like too much? Don't get me wrong, I think your real life actions are admirable, but I just wonder if you ever have second thoughts? Believe me, I am most appreciative of the money you put into this game as an owner, and how you coordinate it with your immense care for the animals, but I'm wondering if at least sometimes you don't consider approaching it as more of a business.

Your sacrcasm is endearing and so exquisitely executed in a subtle manner.

And I too am appreciative of your thoughts as a owner of large stocks of two year olds.

I of course greatly appreciate owners putting on the show at their expense. If they did not, I would not get to see the animals run which I enjoy a great deal. I think owners that really love the animals have already questioned themselves about my reactionary ideas. Making them, reactionaries in thought only. There has never been any discussion about this.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

You are correct.

What about shoving everything back a year? When the horses have developed. Run the TC races at 4... Cool no? And better for the animals.

But there would be a cost, to start with. The title of the thread is crazy ideas. I dont think this is actually that crazy. Just thinking about the animals at the expense of money for a year.

A wise man told me about a rich guy who tried this idea back in the 60's. The guy bred and raised his own horses, left them in the field until the summer of their 3 year old year before they were broke. He then waited until 4 to run them. Guess what happened? They all popped splints and bucked shins like 2 year olds!

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

A wise man told me about a rich guy who tried this idea back in the 60's. The guy bred and raised his own horses, left them in the field until the summer of their 3 year old year before they were broke. He then waited until 4 to run them. Guess what happened? They all popped splints and bucked shins like 2 year olds!

cept they don't heal as fast, or as sound as if it had happened at 2!

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

A wise man told me about a rich guy who tried this idea back in the 60's. The guy bred and raised his own horses, left them in the field until the summer of their 3 year old year before they were broke. He then waited until 4 to run them. Guess what happened? They all popped splints and bucked shins like 2 year olds!

I am not saying not to run them. I have typed this numerous times. Competitively... with money... after they are fried because they are in the money not far from the finish.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'll stick to the opinions of professionals, like Chuck, and pass on your false concerns.

So Chuck has no concerns?

And why are my concerns false? Your data and experience with this?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by pgardn

And why are my concerns false? Your data and experience with this?

Because every professional that has responded in this thread, and the few I have spoken to privately, has stated clearly that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.


I do, however, enjoy your stuff on rock and roll message boards.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Because every professional that has responded in this thread, and the few I have spoken to privately, has stated clearly that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.


I do, however, enjoy your stuff on rock and roll message boards.

Where did people post that I have absolutely no idea what I am typing about? I missed that post.

I just know some large animal vets, some trainers from a small track, and the equisterian types of riders that dont understand the chances taken with two year olds.

So I pose this as a question that is way too radical apparently and never discussed... ? that in itself is interesting.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Where did people post that I have absolutely no idea what I am typing about? I missed that post.

I just know some large animal vets, some trainers from a small track, and the equisterian types of riders that dont understand the chances taken with two year olds.

So I pose this as a question that is way too radical apparently and never discussed... ? that in itself is interesting.

Your thought is reactionary, and while obviously there are some threads of truth within it, taken as a whole it is pretty much a perversion of the truth. Personally I find a naive selectivity about what is wrong with racing, while ignoring the similar supposed wrongs, to be hypocritical. But, hey, that's just me.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Your thought is reactionary, and while obviously there are some threads of truth within it, taken as a whole it is pretty much a perversion of the truth. Personally I find a naive selectivity about what is wrong with racing, while ignoring the similar supposed wrongs, to be hypocritical. But, hey, that's just me.

A perversion of what truth?

And this is not a thread about what is wrong with racing as a whole. Just one little aspect that has been brought to light to me by others that are around horses. And are interested in their longterm health in their "profession".

I actually think its neat how incredibly fast some two year olds can run. It is amazing.

[Riot]

Pgardn, you may find this interesting. Highlights mine:

Bone. December 2006;39(6):1322-30. Kristien Verheyen1, Joanna Price, Lance Lanyon, James Wood 1 Epidemiology Unit, Animal Health Trust, Newmarket, United Kingdom. kverheyen@rvc.ac.uk

Abstract
In order to gain insight into those training regimens that can minimise the risk of fracture in athletic populations, we conducted a large epidemiological study in racehorses. Thoroughbred racehorses provide a suitable model for studying fracture development and exercise-related risk factors in physically active populations. They represent a homogeneous population, undertaking intensive exercise programmes that are sufficiently heterogeneous to determine those factors that influence injury risk.

Daily exercise information was recorded for a cohort of 1178 thoroughbreds that were monitored for up to 2 years. A total of 148 exercise-induced fractures occurred in the study population. Results from a nested case-control study showed a strong interactive effect of exercise distances at different speeds on fracture risk.

Horses that exceeded 44 km at canter (< or =14 m/s) and 6 km at gallop (>14 m/s) in a 30-day period were at particularly increased risk of fracture. These distances equate to ca. 7700 bone loading cycles at canter and 880 loading cycles at gallop. Fifty-six fractures occurred in the subset of study horses that were followed since entering training as yearlings, when skeletally immature (n = 335).

Cohort analysis of this data set showed that, in previously untrained bones, accumulation of canter exercise increased the risk of fracture (P < or = 0.01), whereas accumulation of high-speed gallop exercise had a protective effect (P < 0.01). However, increasing distances at canter and gallop in short time periods (up to one month) were associated with an increasing fracture risk.

All training exercise involves a balance between the risk of fracture inherent in exposure to loading and the beneficial effect that loading has by stimulating bone cells to produce a more robust architecture. Results from our study provide important epidemiological evidence of the effects of physical exercise on bone adaptation and injury risk and can be used to inform the design of safer exercise regimens in physically active populations.

Originally Posted by Riot

Pgardn, you may find this interesting.

All training exercise involves a balance between the risk of fracture inherent in exposure to loading and the beneficial effect that loading has by stimulating bone cells to produce a more robust architecture. Results from our study provide important epidemiological evidence of the effects of physical exercise on bone adaptation and injury risk and can be used to inform the design of safer exercise regimens in physically active populations.

Cool. So training them appropriately at two years old is benificial given the right amount of rest, etc... In fact it is better for them which was already obvious. You must use muscles and bones so they develop properly. Part of why living in zero gravity would really screw up a young horse, just like old John Glenn.

So we dont necessarily have to race them competitively, and still keep them healthy.