Nice win by Flashy Bull

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by NoLuvForPletch

The shape of the game right now is really rewarding those middle of the pack 3YO's that aren't worth anything at stud so they continue on into their 4 and 5 YO campaigns. I'm sure we'll read in a few days that WPT has sold an interest in FLASHY BULL to someone like WinStar and they'll retire him after the end of the year, to go on and produce nothing. Then he will get shipped to some other country for stud duties.

My guess is that it'll be INVASOR vs the 3 YO crop in this year's Classic.

Oh how the game has changed.

Here's a question.......where did it really start? I mean, we used to have good horses, with at least reasonable regularity. Now, it's just an absolute farce.......a masquarade ball if you will. NW3Xs going to the ball dressed as Grade 1 winners and all the misinformed go " oh my. " And some fools bite, and not only buy into these charlatans, but breed their mares to them as well. And then the breed gets just a little worse.....and it goes on and on.

So who were the real initial frauds that started to substantially permeate the breed to really get the ball of mediocrity rolling? Who were these subpar 2YOs or 3YOs that were given absurd stud deals and force fed down the throats of the nouveau riche who wanted to get inside this game and were subsequently fleeced out of their dollars while buying two headed yearlings because they thought it would give them a better chance to win a photo?

I want the names......and I want them now!

That performance didn't crack the TOP 30 in the Beyer department this year. Unreal how bad that race was.

The top Beyer past a mile so far? 115 Fairbanks. LOL

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Here's a question.......where did it really start? I mean, we used to have good horses, with at least reasonable regularity. Now, it's just an absolute farce.......a masquarade ball if you will. NW3Xs going to the ball dressed as Grade 1 winners and all the misinformed go " oh my. " And some fools bite, and not only buy into these charlatans, but breed their mares to them as well. And then the breed gets just a little worse.....and it goes on and on.

So who were the real initial frauds that started to substantially permeate the breed to really get the ball of mediocrity rolling? Who were these subpar 2YOs or 3YOs that were given absurd stud deals and force fed down the throats of the nouveau riche who wanted to get inside this game and were subsequently fleeced out of their dollars while buying two headed yearlings because they thought it would give them a better chance to win a photo?

I want the names......and I want them now!

I don't think it was a bunch of frauds or semi-lousy 2 & 3 year olds. I do think the deal made for Secretariat shortly after the Belmont started the movement toward retiring very good horses early for big money.

Maybe if O Phipps had lost the coin flip he would have gotten Secretariat and things would have been different.

[Linny]

Sec was sold BEFORE the TC not after. The boom in stud values traces to the early 80's and the opening up of the international market. No one horse or human is responsible but lets face it, since 2000, how many of the "best" 3yo colts have run on at four, at all? Tiznow did, but honestly with his breeding, no one was screaming for him, even after his BC win. Similarly Albert the Great. Of the "classic" colts most retired w/out even finishing their 3yo campaigns. I am not implying that colts like Point Given, FuPeg or Afleet Alex and Smarty Jones were "horses for the ages" but they were leaders in their class who could have provided top quality racing in the 4up division. PG, Alex and Smarty all retired with "injuries" that did NOT preclude racing again.
At some point in the 80's established, successful racehorses with desireable breeding became to valuable to race.

We can only hope that the best colts of the next few years will actually be geldings, or at best modestly bred entire males. It's the best shot we'll have at high class racing for older horses.

[NoLuvForPletch]

Originally Posted by Linny

Sec was sold BEFORE the TC not after. The boom in stud values traces to the early 80's and the opening up of the international market. No one horse or human is responsible but lets face it, since 2000, how many of the "best" 3yo colts have run on at four, at all? Tiznow did, but honestly with his breeding, no one was screaming for him, even after his BC win. Similarly Albert the Great. Of the "classic" colts most retired w/out even finishing their 3yo campaigns. I am not implying that colts like Point Given, FuPeg or Afleet Alex and Smarty Jones were "horses for the ages" but they were leaders in their class who could have provided top quality racing in the 4up division. PG, Alex and Smarty all retired with "injuries" that did NOT preclude racing again.
At some point in the 80's established, successful racehorses with desireable breeding became to valuable to race.

We can only hope that the best colts of the next few years will actually be geldings, or at best modestly bred entire males. It's the best shot we'll have at high class racing for older horses.

Don't you think that horses like those you mention are most likely going to add to the problem with the breed? Horses that can't even finish their 3YO campaigns are supposed to produce the next crop of horses? The durability of the breed is already in serious jeopardy. Now throw these horses into the mix, that have less than 15 starts (just throwing a general number out there) in their career, and chances are the durability will be weakened even more. Point Given - 13 starts, Smarty Jones - 9 starts, Afleet Alex - 12 starts. Hell, Teuflesberg raced 11 times as a 2YO. At least he seems a like durable animal.

[Pedigree Ann]

Yes, the Secretariat deal, which was reached before he started racing as a 3yo, was understood as a special situation, where the money was necessary to save the farm, quite literally. But when the syndicate that was put together for Conquistador Cielo, who was not particularly well-bred, for $40million, the floodgates opened.

Many of the financial difficulties of Calumet stemmed from the insane amounts that Lundy 'paid' for lesser lights like Secreto and Mogambo. Risen Star sufferred a minor injury and was retired after the Belmont to cash in. Spend a Buck didn't run at 4, either, although he did run until August.

THe 1980s bloodstock bubble was the beginning of the time when breeding for the sales became more important than breeding for racing. The original Breeders' Cup concept was a response to this trend - to create a race with a big enough purse to tempt owners into keeping their hot 3yo in training until the fall at least, and into their 4yo season at best. It hasn't worked.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Cardus

I do not have an answer to BTW's question -- either specifically or generally -- but since both Triple Crown winners after Secretariat were not retired after their three-year-old seasons, perhaps the deal for Secretariat -- which according to Penny Chenery was spurred by her father's estate tax burden -- did not set in motion today's current practice. Maybe the answer resides somewhere in the 1980s, during the back end of the yearling sales boom.

I agree and I think two things happened....and one of them was the birth of Storm Cat.

[Linny]

Before Storm Cat was Mr P (who was the sire of Conquistador Cielo) and the big daddy of "priceless" stallions, Northern Dancer. The shift to a commercial approach to breeding took place in the 80's and has continued. When horses like Secretariat were syndicated it was understood that the shareholders were going to raise and race the bulk of their baby "Big Reds." In fact some commercial breeders were NOT permitted to buy shares because of fears about such enerprises hurting Sec's value if there was a perception that folks were "selling off" the Secretariat babies.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Linny

Before Storm Cat was Mr P (who wasa the sire of Conquistador Cielo) and the big daddy of "priceless" stallions, Northern Dancer.

put those three names together and you get yourself a hat-trick of a disaster for the racing end of the business.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

put those three names together and you get yourself a hat-trick of a disaster for the racing end of the business.

It's the breeding boom trifecta. Breeding has become the tail that wags the racing dog.

[blackthroatedwind]

I'll give him a call.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Here's a question.......where did it really start? I mean, we used to have good horses, with at least reasonable regularity. Now, it's just an absolute farce.......a masquarade ball if you will. NW3Xs going to the ball dressed as Grade 1 winners

If you believe Jerry Brown......the opposite is happening.

It would be really lovely if he made a cameo here on this specific topic.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

If you believe Jerry Brown......the opposite is happening.

It would be really lovely if he made a cameo here on this specific topic.

an absolutely preposterous position

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Entertaining never-the-less

[miraja2]

Man you guys are really hard on poor old Flashy. Sure he had a really good trip, but did you see the way he moved past a rabbit, a Hawthorne horse, and a need-the-lead horse that didn't have the lead? What a move!! Then he managed to break 13 seconds for the final furlong! What a superstar!

Although his victory may be a bad sign for the sport, it is certainly a good thing for us as handicappers. He is now coming off of 4 straight victories, which means that even if they run him in a legitimate G1 (especially if it is at 10f) he may receive some play at the windows. That is good for us.

[Cajungator26]

Didn't Jerry Bailey say that Eddington was one of the most talented horses he ever rode?

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Man you guys are really hard on poor old Flashy. Sure he had a really good trip, but did you see the way he moved past a rabbit, a Hawthorne horse, and a need-the-lead horse that didn't have the lead? What a move!! Then he managed to break 13 seconds for the final furlong! What a superstar!

Although his victory may be a bad sign for the sport, it is certainly a good thing for us as handicappers. He is now coming off of 4 straight victories, which means that even if they run him in a legitimate G1 (especially if it is at 10f) he may receive some play at the windows. That is good for us.

It would have been worse for the sport had Diamond Stripes won.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

It would have been worse for the sport had Diamond Stripes won.

Please note that I said Flashy Bull's win was a bad sign for the sport, not bad for the sport. That is very different.
There is nothing wrong with Flashy Bull. He is a nice horse that has now won four races in a row. I always like to see these former Triple Crown trail horses do well at ages four and beyond. I just think the fact that he is now a "G1 winner" is a bit of a joke.
Just out of curiosity, why do you think a Diamond Stripes victory would have been so bad? Wouldn't an undefeated 4yo gelding be kind of interesting?