Are poles adjusted in turf races when the rail is shifted?

[Storm Cadet]

Originally Posted by BillW

Basically you are adding:

D * 6.283 to the distance

where D = the distance the rail is out ( 12 or 18 feet in the case of the Mellon course)

so with the rail out 12 feet we add 75 feet to the race or 113 feet for the rail at 18 feet.

Bill we spoke about this 2 years ago with CJ and the track super at Sar, remember? Does your equation figure in for the whole trip, one turn turf, two turns? Is your equation for a circle...which a race track is NOT. The straight aways can't figure in to the added distance, ONLY the turns.

I'd love to drive a car or walk the course one day in the one path with the rails out at 12 feet and check the actual distance with a distance calibrator like road engeneers use. Then do the one path with rails out at 18 feet and so on.

Also, doesn't the distance out differ from inner and outer turf courses on your equation? The added distance HAS to be greater on the outer Belmont course than the inner with it's huge area and sweeping turns?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

Bill we spoke about this 2 years ago with CJ and the track super at Sar, remember? Does your equation figure in for the whole trip, one turn turf, two turns? Is your equation for a circle...which a race track is NOT. The straight aways can't figure in to the added distance, ONLY the turns.

I'd love to drive a car or walk the course one day in the one path with the rails out at 12 feet and check the actual distance with a distance calibrator like road engeneers use. Then do the one path with rails out at 18 feet and so on.

Also, doesn't the distance out differ from inner and outer turf courses on your equation? The added distance HAS to be greater on the outer Belmont course than the inner with it's huge area and sweeping turns?

his equation accounts for a two turn race, the equation is for a circle but that is the only part of the track that needs to be considered when determining the extra distance due to the rails being out. the straights shouldn't matter.

you could say that the amount the rails being out adds to the distance is
3.141 * D * #t, where #T equals number of turns (1,2,3)

would you agree billw?

[Storm Cadet]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

his equation accounts for a two turn race, the equation is for a circle but that is the only part of the track that needs to be considered when determining the extra distance due to the rails being out. the straights shouldn't matter.

you could say that the amount the rails being out adds to the distance is
3.141 * D * #t, where #T equals number of turns (1,2,3)

would you agree billw?

That makes more sense...3.141 time the number of turns times distance...but I wonder if that equation is really accurate?

I think the guys that have the best grasp of this and how it effects a race is the Thoro-graph guys. They are well tuned into the track super and the more scientific parts of handicapping. Good guys also! Would be a great breakfast discussion at Steve's AM T Graph seminars at Saratoga and invite the track super for his input. Maybe he had the added distance figured out already. And then add or subtract the gate runup distance...now we're getting into paralysis by analysis...just play Steve's turf picks. He knows SAR better than any of us!

[BillW]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

his equation accounts for a two turn race, the equation is for a circle but that is the only part of the track that needs to be considered when determining the extra distance due to the rails being out. the straights shouldn't matter.

you could say that the amount the rails being out adds to the distance is
3.141 * D * #t, where #T equals number of turns (1,2,3)

would you agree billw?

Yep - at that time of the morning, turf races only have 2 turns

[BillW]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

Bill we spoke about this 2 years ago with CJ and the track super at Sar, remember? Does your equation figure in for the whole trip, one turn turf, two turns? Is your equation for a circle...which a race track is NOT. The straight aways can't figure in to the added distance, ONLY the turns.

Picture a circle split into 2 semi-circles. Now, separate the 2 semi-circles by a distance of 2 furlongs and connect them by straight lines, which is the approximate configuration of a race track. The equation holds in either case and the straight segment does not add anything (a 2 furlong straight segment is 2 furlongs no matter where it is relative to the hedge). As ArlJim78 mentions, the equation is 3.14159 (Pi) times the "rail out" distance for each turn.

Also, doesn't the distance out differ from inner and outer turf courses on your equation? The added distance HAS to be greater on the outer Belmont course than the inner with it's huge area and sweeping turns?

Nope - the change in circumference is linear. Also note that the same equations apply for a horse running off the rail.

[Storm Cadet]

Originally Posted by BillW

Picture a circle split into 2 semi-circles. Now, separate the 2 semi-circles by a distance of 2 furlongs and connect them by straight lines, which is the approximate configuration of a race track. The equation holds in either case and the straight segment does not add anything (a 2 furlong straight segment is 2 furlongs no matter where it is relative to the hedge). As ArlJim78 mentions, the equation is 3.14159 (Pi) times the "rail out" distance for each turn.


Nope - the change in circumference is linear. Also note that the same equations apply for a horse running off the rail.

Are you the HUMAN TRACKUS?

[saratogadew]

here is a turf rail discussion from 8 years ago.

[ironprospect]

Moving the starting gate has no bearing on the actual distance of the race.

The race DOES NOT START at the gate, it starts at the pole or whatever distance marker is.

The starting gate is placed before the start, sometimes quite a bit but there is always a run up to the actual start where the clock starts. Which makes moving the gate around immaterial to the actual distance run.

Which is why the gate movement was quoted as 10-25 feet but only because of course wear not in an attempt to even out distance due to rail movement.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

The added distance HAS to be greater on the outer Belmont course than the inner with it's huge area and sweeping turns?

Have Belmonts turns ever been addressed without the word 'sweeping' in front of them?

[Storm Cadet]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Have Belmonts turns ever been addressed without the word 'sweeping' in front of them?

Sweeping as the Red Sox are sweeping the offensively challenged Giants?

[Bobby Fischer]

Speed Figures - 2 seconds makes a big difference.

- With the exception of the shorter turf sprints(all out sprints with a lot of early speed types) I don't think 150 feet or so distance is going to draw stamina into play.

In routes I think the biggest factor, if it exists, is a benefit it would give to inside or outside runners.
I don't understand this factor - I have heard Rails Out= Inside Turn Bias

[BillW]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

I don't understand this factor - I have heard Rails Out= Inside Turn Bias

That's probably referring to it being easier to run around a wider (more sweeping ) turn. Try running in a 20 foot circle then move out to one that is 40 feet in diameter. The centrifugal force is less as the turn flattens out. As far as it being a real impact on turns of the radius that exist on a racing oval, I don't really know.