Circular Quay

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Yeah I know. But I'm talking about now greats, not future greats. The horse is great now, and thats what really matters. I'll leave it to morons who obsess about one or two horses all year and do nothing but talk about them to obsess on the future. I'm enjoying watching him run.

I was referencing this post. No offense intended Oracle.

Why do I post my thoughts you ask. Well, because I think there is way too much misinformation wirtten about horses in this game these days. I think people are led astray by overzealousness. Personally, I prefer to see something special before getting excited about a horse. Plus, considering the veritable plethora of " awesome " one time performances eminating from the Pletcher barn ( especially with 2YOs ) I think it is wise to withhold judgement before declaring every next best thing that appears a superstar.

Let's hold the accolades for those that have actually earned them.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I was referencing this post. No offense intended Oracle.

Why do I post my thoughts you ask. Well, because I think there is way too much misinformation wirtten about horses in this game these days. I think people are led astray by overzealousness. Personally, I prefer to see something special before getting excited about a horse. Plus, considering the veritable plethora of " awesome " one time performances eminating from the Pletcher barn ( especially with 2YOs ) I think it is wise to withhold judgement before declaring every next best thing that appears a superstar.

Let's hold the accolades for those that have actually earned them.

I guess I understand Oracles distinction, now great vs. future great. People are excited because of his race today, not because he is considered one of the all-time greats.

Again, he was an impressive winner of the Bashford Manor. No one said superstar. So you were just ho hum about the way he dove to the rail and passed 5 horses in the last furlong like they were standing still?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Again, he was an impressive winner of the Bashford Manor. No one said superstar. So you were just ho hum about the way he dove to the rail and passed 5 horses in the last furlong like they were standing still?

No, I was not wildly impressed by a second time starter that ran .11 seconds faster than a 2YO filly firster ( one that you labelled " not spectacular but solid " ).

I also wasn't wildly impressed that he ran .3 seconds faster than a $15K claimer that ran an average of a 44.67 Beyer figure in his previous three outings.

I wasn't impressed that he ran .56 seconds faster than a 2YO filly who endured a tough trip to win HER start a couple races earlier.

By the way, he did not dive to the rail, as he spent the entire race in the two path ( thus never losing any valuable ground ).

I do not believe that in judging Circular Quay's performace against other 6F races run Saturday at Churchill points him out as anything special whatsoever. I believe in looking at the whole picture.

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

No, I was not wildly impressed by a second time starter that ran .11 seconds faster than a 2YO filly firster ( one that you labelled " not spectacular but solid " ).

I also wasn't wildly impressed that he ran .3 seconds faster than a $15K claimer that ran an average of a 44.67 Beyer figure in his previous three outings.

I wasn't impressed that he ran .56 seconds faster than a 2YO filly who endured a tough trip to win HER start a couple races earlier.

By the way, he did not dive to the rail, as he spent the entire race in the two path ( thus never losing any valuable ground ).

I do not believe that in judging Circular Quay's performace against other 6F races run Saturday at Churchill points him out as anything special whatsoever. I believe in looking at the whole picture.

I didn't see the race, but from what I understand CQ had to steady and find room before getting past the other horses. So, if we're looking at the whole picture, we should consider that when comparing times. Also, CQ is not bred to be a sprinter, he's expected to improve when he stretches out. That makes a win like this more impressive IMO, this horse just knows how to win and has the talent do it. --now, hopefully he stays around long enough to prove it! (BTW, I was thinking about Value Plus as another horse that could be listed among those with a spectacular start that fizzled out)

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

I didn't see the race, but from what I understand CQ had to steady and find room before getting past the other horses. So, if we're looking at the whole picture, we should consider that when comparing times. Also, CQ is not bred to be a sprinter, he's expected to improve when he stretches out. That makes a win like this more impressive IMO, this horse just knows how to win and has the talent do it. --now, hopefully he stays around long enough to prove it! (BTW, I was thinking about Value Plus as another horse that could be listed among those with a spectacular start that fizzled out)

I think you should watch the race before commenting on his trip. He NEVER steadied ( I just watched it again to make sure ).

What's interesting is that he did not go inside because he had nowhere else to go. He went inside because he insisted on it. Bejarano was whipping him lefty the entire stretch to get him to angle out and the horse wanted to go inside. Reminds me of a Billy Turner maiden winner at Belmont on July 1st who refused to pass outside the leader in the stretch and only got rolling, to win, when he was guided to the rail. So, to me, it was only in getting inside that he was completely comfortable.

As far as his future success based on his breeding....I'll believe that when I see it. Perhaps you are right but considering the pps of 2YOs from this barn I highly doubt we'll even get a chance to find out.

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I think you should watch the race before commenting on his trip. He NEVER steadied ( I just watched it again to make sure ).

What's interesting is that he did not go inside because he had nowhere else to go. He went inside because he insisted on it. Bejarano was whipping him lefty the entire stretch to get him to angle out and the horse wanted to go inside. Reminds me of a Billy Turner maiden winner at Belmont on July 1st who refused to pass outside the leader in the stretch and only got rolling, to win, when he was guided to the rail. So, to me, it was only in getting inside that he was completely comfortable.

As far as his future success based on his breeding....I'll believe that when I see it. Perhaps you are right but considering the pps of 2YOs from this barn I highly doubt we'll even get a chance to find out.

Well, I did admit I had not watched the race, but the equibase charts comments say "steady 3/8s, driving" based on that and the comments of others... and this quote from a bloodhorse.com article:

"Circular Quay, seventh in the early going, started to work his way through the field but was forced to steady in traffic on the far turn and swung to the outside for clear running. Teuflesberg still led at midstretch as Run Alex Run and Shermanesque rallied strongly to his outside and Pegasus Wind began to tire. Circular Quay, still fifth with a furlong to run, veered toward the inside for his late charge. Blanc urged Shermanesque to a narrow advantage over Run Alex Run in the final eighth, but Bejarano guided Circular Quay through along the rail and got clear for the victory.

"He tried to go to the rail, and he was scared a little bit with the other horses," said Bejarano. "So I tried to put him in the best position. The last eighth, I tried to put him to the rail and in five jumps he was in the lead."


Also, sounds like it was the jock's idea, not the horse, to go to the rail... I really like it when a horse is willing to skim the rail, shows a lot of courage. and determination.

[Thoroughbred Fan]

I have to think the key to assessing his overall quality is the fact that the dam is a G1 winner and he hass a brother who is 2 for 3 earning 70k+. That means his brother wasn't winning at slouch tracks either. I also heard she has a nice yearling. Sounds like they have found a great broodmare. I am not saying this colt can win the Derby or anything, but he is from a very young and quality mare.

[blackthroatedwind]

If you believe charts and don't watch races for yourself it is impossible to judge them accurately. He may have had to hesitate some going towards the turn but I would hardly call it a steady. Plus, you claimed he had to steady to find room before getting past the other horses, and that is simply not true.

As far as Bejarano's comments, I suggest you watch the race carefully, as they don't seem wholly reliable. He wanted to get the horse outside ( understandable ) and as he said the horse wanted to go inside and basically he was left with no choice.

Please....just watch the race.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

No, I was not wildly impressed by a second time starter that ran .11 seconds faster than a 2YO filly firster ( one that you labelled " not spectacular but solid " ).

I also wasn't wildly impressed that he ran .3 seconds faster than a $15K claimer that ran an average of a 44.67 Beyer figure in his previous three outings.

I wasn't impressed that he ran .56 seconds faster than a 2YO filly who endured a tough trip to win HER start a couple races earlier.

By the way, he did not dive to the rail, as he spent the entire race in the two path ( thus never losing any valuable ground ).

I do not believe that in judging Circular Quay's performace against other 6F races run Saturday at Churchill points him out as anything special whatsoever. I believe in looking at the whole picture.

CQ was not in the 2 path the whole race. His post position was eight and he ran for about 1.5 furlongs on the outside. He was moved to the inside and also moved around a slowing horse on the turn. He showed me a good deal of athleticism, many horses do not maintain their speed when moving left and right. Also he was fully within himself at the wire and looked to have plenty of run left in him. He looked like a horse that will have no problem stretching out.
I am not impressed with an analysis that is just comprised of recounting the final times of the other races on the card. My comments were based entirely on a visual review of the races, I had not even looked at the final times.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

CQ was not in the 2 path the whole race. His post position was eight and he ran for about 1.5 furlongs on the outside. He was moved to the inside and also moved around a slowing horse on the turn. He showed me a good deal of athleticism, many horses do not maintain their speed when moving left and right. Also he was fully within himself at the wire and looked to have plenty of run left in him. He looked like a horse that will have no problem stretching out.
I am not impressed with an analysis that is just comprised of recounting the final times of the other races on the card. My comments were based entirely on a visual review of the races, I had not even looked at the final times.

I don't agree that he had " plenty of run left in him " but we can certainly agree to disagree. I feel highly confident he ran as fast as he could have TODAY.

I am not asking you to be " impressed ", but I offer those comparisons as the fairest way to gauge his effort against the other races today. I have no problem with you judging him visually, and respect that, but it is certainly not the only way a horse should be judged. Relative time is important...at least to me.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I don't agree that he had " plenty of run left in him " but we can certainly agree to disagree. I feel highly confident he ran as fast as he could have TODAY.

I am not asking you to be " impressed ", but I offer those comparisons as the fairest way to gauge his effort against the other races today. I have no problem with you judging him visually, and respect that, but it is certainly not the only way a horse should be judged. Relative time is important...at least to me.

I think he did have plenty of run left in him, and I was standing about 50 feet from him between the finish and the 1/16th pole.

Crowning him as some sort of champion is out of line, but the little guy ran good and beat the ones who mattered today. He seemed to still be a handful after the race, as he was the first to return back and Bejarano was yelling at him the entire time to basically calm down. That little ****er was ready to run again, regardless of how many tenths of a second he was off the 15K claimers.

[ateamstupid]

The way I feel about CQ is that, at least sprinting, he has one very impressive furlong in him. In his debut, he used that impressive furlong to accelerate and blow away the maidens he was facing in the stretch. Today, he used that furlong to make up a lot of ground on some very nice 2-year-olds.

I'm not as impressed with CQ as I am with his turn of foot. He's got an uncanny ability to turn it on at the right time, and I think that's more valuable than anything with these immature babies.

Black, I totally see your point about the times, but I just feel like this horse has a last 1/8th in him like I've never (or at least hardly ever) seen in a 2-year-old. One of us will be proven right this summer, and I look forward to seeing CQ contest The Sanford and/or The Hopeful.