Where does RTR belong in history?

[Siena 16]

Ruffian by far was the fastest filly ever to race. And she ran when medication was not as much as a contributor to performance as it is in racing today

[slotdirt]

This is the leader in the clubhouse in prematurity for 2007 threads started.

You can't beat the past. This sport is doomed in that regard. It's like baseball.

[King Glorious]

I think Rags has the potential to be a really top one. But, in my opinion, this is one of the weakest 3yo filly groups I've seen and the colts are not that much better. Street Sense and Curlin have seperated themselves from the pack but what's making them stand out as extra special is because the crop is extremely mediocre. It's always been my opinion that in order for me to say a horse is truly great, he/she's got to do something really special. I don't mean just win the top races because every year, someone is going to win those races. For me, u've either got to beat some really good horses or u've got to run some amazing times/figures. To me, Street Sense has beaten one good horse (Curlin) and Curlin has beaten one good horse (Street Sense) and Rags has beaten one good horse (Curlin). Neither one ran an extremely fast time, ie a 115+ figure.

Getting back to Rags, I don't think she's in the class with some of the best of the past 20 years like Go for Wand, Bayakoa, Personal Ensign, Inside Information, Lady's Secret, Paseana, Azeri, Winning Colors, or Serena's Song.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I think Rags has the potential to be a really top one. But, in my opinion, this is one of the weakest 3yo filly groups I've seen and the colts are not that much better. Street Sense and Curlin have seperated themselves from the pack but what's making them stand out as extra special is because the crop is extremely mediocre. It's always been my opinion that in order for me to say a horse is truly great, he/she's got to do something really special. I don't mean just win the top races because every year, someone is going to win those races. For me, u've either got to beat some really good horses or u've got to run some amazing times/figures. To me, Street Sense has beaten one good horse (Curlin) and Curlin has beaten one good horse (Street Sense) and Rags has beaten one good horse (Curlin). Neither one ran an extremely fast time, ie a 115+ figure.

Getting back to Rags, I don't think she's in the class with some of the best of the past 20 years like Go for Wand, Bayakoa, Personal Ensign, Inside Information, Lady's Secret, Paseana, Azeri, Winning Colors, or Serena's Song.

I guess you forgot about Tampa and the Preakness, but that's ok, I'll let it slide.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I guess you forgot about Tampa and the Preakness, but that's ok, I'll let it slide.

No I didn't. Street Sense got a 102 in Tampa and Curlin got a 111 in the Preakness. That's why I used the 115+ as my barometer. Flat times are one thing but a speed figure helps determine how legit that final time was and how fast the track was. Those are decent numbers for 3yo's but nothing Earth shattering. The top 3yo's of the past few seasons like Bernardini, Discreet Cat, Smarty Jones, Point Given, Funny Cide, Afleet Alex, War Emblem.....they were routinely faster than these two.

[pba1817]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

No I didn't. Street Sense got a 102 in Tampa and Curlin got a 111 in the Preakness. That's why I used the 115+ as my barometer. Flat times are one thing but a speed figure helps determine how legit that final time was and how fast the track was. Those are decent numbers for 3yo's but nothing Earth shattering. The top 3yo's of the past few seasons like Bernardini, Discreet Cat, Smarty Jones, Point Given, Funny Cide, Afleet Alex, War Emblem.....they were routinely faster than these two.

This current group might be slower, but I remember everyone saying that heading into last years Derby too, and the hearing the same thing the year before that as well.

It all has to do with the lack of seasoning for these young horses. Horses develop over time and with experience, just like any athlete. Look at most of the great distance horses in history, they continued to develop at the end of their 3yo season and beyond. Today, horses are retired at 3.

Those faster times you want to see would come if these horses were running more frequently early in their career. Will you have more physical issues, yes, and that is where the problem lies. Owners are focusing solely on a few select races in a horses career that if they do win them, its like winning the lottery. It has made the owners scared to death to hurt a prospective stallion before he gets to the triple crown races. The opportunity for profit is so huge that it just not worth the risk to them to run their horses as frequently as they did in years past.

I think the only solution is to significantly increase purses in graded stakes races. Making it very difficult for owners to walk away from a huge purse, or a share of it. I think graded purses are too low when compared to top level other sports, and the industry has failed to show a fair increase over the years. The perfect example is the Arlington Million, which is still the Arlington Million 26 years later, what sense does that make? in todays market, it should be the Arlington $10 Million...

The stakes increase could funded by a number of areas, but mostly it should by the people who are going to reap the benefits, the owners and breeders. Putting a take out %, just like we have to pay at the mutual windows, on the live foal fees as well as the auction rings. For as much money is exchanged hands, the % would not have to be much. There are record numbers being spent each year, yet we are seeing less and less Graded quality horses... its only going to get worse until the industry realizes they are sacrificing quality racing for their own greed.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Cardus

She doesn't belong "in history" until her career is history.

Correct. Thanks for saying the truth.
She could be....but there's a long way ahead.
For sure she made fans, and I think T-bred racing needed this.
Just don't "fall in love". Sometimes they break your heart.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Correct. Thanks for saying the truth.
She could be....but there's a long way ahead.
For sure she made fans, and I think T-bred racing needed this.
Just don't "fall in love". Sometimes they break your heart.

I agree, I love racing history and as a hobby, maintain a list of the horses I feel are the 100 "best ever"...it's highly subjective, one person's opinion as I rank horses as far back as Flying Childers and Eclipse and that leaves me open to the question of how on earth I can compare horses which ran a series of two mile heats with today's animals...my answer is a combination of research and a fair degree of "gut instinct"...as I said, highly subjective (but lots of fun). My point being, I NEVER consider a horse until they retire...simply isn't fair. Rags seems to have almost unlimited potential and the Belmont win secures her a place in history (I mean really...first filly to ever win a 12f Belmont) but Roman only assigned a PF of -47 to her, the slowest number he's ever given the Belmont winner (next would be Sarava at -55) and so questions about quality of competition will be raised. Still, she stumbled at the gate, raced wide and was facing colts for the first time so...who knows. If she retired today, I'd have a tough time ranking her above the likes of Inside Information and Winning Colors, certainly not with the likes of Personal Ensign or Lady's Secret.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Cardus

She doesn't belong "in history" until her career is history.

I don't like the fact that I went on some big lengthy rant and then you come along and nicely sum up everything I was trying to say in one cleverly constructed sentence.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cardus

She doesn't belong "in history" until her career is history.

Good point

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Good point

I say not a good point. I think a 3x G1 winning filly who wins the Belmont while getting the toughest trip in the field is enough to be judged favorably through history.

Can you name one filly who accomplished more than she has through this point in their respective 3 yo years?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Siena 16

Ruffian by far was the fastest filly ever to race. And she ran when medication was not as much as a contributor to performance as it is in racing today

That's not exactly true but you can believe it if you want