Stress Kills: Ken Lay Dead at 64

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

You dudes can continue this fascinating dialogue in the OT forum..

You little busy rat(in an outfit.)

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

You little busy rat(in an outfit.)

LOL. NOT ON MY WATCH!!!

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

The only money that was lost was the value of the stock which was given by Enron to their employee pension plan. None of the Enron employees lost money of their own ... they only lost their projected share of the paper value of the stock which was given to the plan.

You are totally clueless. Hell of a pension plan. The big guys bail before the stock craters (whose money was that?). The employees are left with what? Do you think the board is really dumb enough to not see your incredibly inane statement? And you talk about the mindless left. Please dont associate yourself with the thinking right. You make a lot of smart people look very bad.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

In this state, he just might succeed! Gotta control those gay folks ya know! The first decent politician to come out of this state since the elder Casey is our current governor...and he's in an impossible situation with the fruitcake legislature...folks are still campaigning on repealing slots for god sake!

Yeah... Santorum makes me embarrassed for my home state. How about the billing his constituents for his kids' tuition-- even though his kids were going to school in Virginia? What a piece of work he is.

Dan Savage, of the "Savage Love" column, coined a definition for "santorum." It's pretty funny.

[GenuineRisk]

... And more happy Kenny Boy news:

His death will make it extremely hard for the government to go after his remaining assets, and for the people who lost money to sue.

And, he now is technically no longer guilty, as, due to the peculiarities of the law, you are not officially guilty until you are sentenced. How's that for justice?

Point taken about the whole diversifying thing, but you need to have the $$ to do it. A lot of companies, at least until recently, would match with company stock only, and you weren't permitted to sell it for years. Sort of forcing people to not diversify.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

... And more happy Kenny Boy news:

His death will make it extremely hard for the government to go after his remaining assets, and for the people who lost money to sue.

And, he now is technically no longer guilty, as, due to the peculiarities of the law, you are not officially guilty until you are sentenced. How's that for justice?

Point taken about the whole diversifying thing, but you need to have the $$ to do it. A lot of companies, at least until recently, would match with company stock only, and you weren't permitted to sell it for years. Sort of forcing people to not diversify.

This has been one of the more hilarious threads, some of it intentional. Loved Bold B's comment about the good potato chips. And STS's reluctance to criticize because he might need to single the re-incarnated Lay in a Pick 3.

Rupert comes in with a lively conspiracy theory, which is indirectly supported by the post above. My wife's first thought was, "maybe Lay committed suicide with the help of a doc.". Maybe he'd seen too many prison movies.

Not to mention Castro, Che Guevara, and Plato. Together at last.

--Dunbar

On a serious note, sorry to hear about your recent difficulties, somer.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

This has been one of the more hilarious threads, some of it intentional. Loved Bold B's comment about the good potato chips. And STS's reluctance to criticize because he might need to single the re-incarnated Lay in a Pick 3.

Rupert comes in with a lively conspiracy theory, which is indirectly supported by the post above. My wife's first thought was, "maybe Lay committed suicide with the help of a doc.". Maybe he'd seen too many prison movies.

Not to mention Castro, Che Guevara, and Plato. Together at last.

--Dunbar

On a serious note, sorry to hear about your recent difficulties, somer.

Thanks Dunbar! I mentioned Castro and Plato, someone else added Che...and no, I never owned a Che T-shirt, I think Marx had some good ideas but after that, the entire concept of communism was bastardized by greedy ruthless men. Plato, of course, expressed some communist-type ideology...I'd still support his concept of Philosopher Kings if it were possible to institute (which it isn't).

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

He was a lot worse than a rapist,or a guy who knocks an old lady down (and takes her purse.)That is atleast a crime against just 1 person.This guy destroyed the future of a lot of people who counted on the money he stole from them.What he did was the equivalent of a serial rapist's work over a period of 30 years(non-stop.)

Ken Lay was a crook ... but please allow me to repeat the facts of this "pension" stuff ...

No Enron employees lost any of their own money. What they "lost" was the paper value of the Enron stocks which had been pledged to their pension plan. The value of these stocks was never "theirs" to begin with ... it was only something they were told they would get in the future.

It's like someone saying they'll give you a Rolex watch on your next birthday ... then not doing it.

Castigate Mr. Lay for being a crook ... but please stop wailing about the "little people" who had their "life savings" stolen from them ... because there weren't any.

Originally Posted by somerfrost

... I'm a mindless twit to some because I find wisdom in the words of someone like Castro...it's the message not the messenger for god sake!

Yes, indeed ... Hitler loved dogs and was very kind to little children ... let's give him credit for that.

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Please, some backup info as to why Eleanor is a "silly twit."

Mrs. Roosevelt never recognized or fully appreciated the danger posed by Soviet and international communism. She was easily gulled into thinking that it was some sort of benevolent social movement ... just as the artless Czarina had been gulled by Potemkin and his fake villages.

She was a wonderful lady with a heart of gold ... as well as a silly twit.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Yes, indeed ... Hitler loved dogs and was very kind to little children ... let's give him credit for that.

You really do have trouble with any type of abstract thought, don't you? It's not about giving credit to Castro, it's the thought that was expressed...and from a ruthless dictator no less! You continue to focus on the person and not the idea...

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Ken Lay was a crook ... but please allow me to repeat the facts of this "pension" stuff ...

No Enron employees lost any of their own money. What they "lost" was the paper value of the Enron stocks which had been pledged to their pension plan. The value of these stocks was never "theirs" to begin with ... it was only something they were told they would get in the future.

It's like someone saying they'll give you a Rolex watch on your next birthday ... then not doing it.

Castigate Mr. Lay for being a crook ... but please stop wailing about the "little people" who had their "life savings" stolen from them ... because there weren't any.

BB, that's ridiculous. Yes, stock market savings are only as valuable as the people buying and selling think they are, but when a company chooses to give company stock for pensions, there is an understanding by the employee that the stock is worth about what the company says it is. Kenny Boy and Co. were lying about and covering up the true state of the company's finances, and continuing to push purchasing the stock on their employees. If the employees knew the true state of the company's finances, do you think they would have held onto their stock? Come on. This is not like being promised a Rolex and then not given it as a gift; pensions are part and parcel of the employment package (if a package includes them). They aren't a Christmas bonus. What this is like is using all of your savings for a Renoir that you were told over and over was genuine and that you could resell at a profit in the future and then finding out the guy who sold it to you knew it was a fake that he bought at Wal-Mart. And then the guy dies before you can sue him.

Under your theory, people should be putting their assets only in cash in their mattresses, because otherwise it's just theoretical-- any interest-bearing investment you do requires putting the money in something theoretical-- like a company's future. Pulling out of the stock market would crush big business in this nation. Odd line of thinking for a rightwinger, don't you agree?

Well, at least they have Social Security. It'll keep them off the streets, anyway, if not much else. Forty percent of your average yearly income is not a lot, but it's a safety net, anyway. Yay for FDR! Still saving the average American from the evils of the modern-day robber barons.

[GenuineRisk]

Oh my God; I can't believe BB finally goaded me into really getting into it with him. Darnit! You suckered me! Sigh...

But I do apologize for using "ridiculous." I would prefer to keep away from name-calling and things like that in these things. You may have very good backup for your argument. To quote Rhett Butler, "I shall watch with interest."

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

You really do have trouble with any type of abstract thought, don't you? It's not about giving credit to Castro, it's the thought that was expressed...and from a ruthless dictator no less! You continue to focus on the person and not the idea...

Sorry, I don't even buy "Castro, the ruthless dictator". Battista, the guy Castro overthrew, was a ruthless dictator. We, the US, have supported numerous ruthless dictators when it suited our purpose. We supported Battista's regime, and we've paid the price for 50 years. Castro is a saint compared to Battista, who fled with as much of his country's wealth as he could stuff into his offshore accounts.

--Dunbar

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Sorry, I don't even buy "Castro, the ruthless dictator". Battista, the guy Castro overthrew, was a ruthless dictator. We, the US, have supported numerous ruthless dictators when it suited our purpose. We supported Battista's regime, and we've paid the price for 50 years. Castro is a saint compared to Battista, who fled with as much of his country's wealth as he could stuff into his offshore accounts.

--Dunbar

Good point Dunbar.
Just a question...which country supported the dictator named Saddam until about 1990?
And if you get that one, which country supported the dictator in the Phillipines named Marcos?

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Sorry, I don't even buy "Castro, the ruthless dictator". Battista, the guy Castro overthrew, was a ruthless dictator. We, the US, have supported numerous ruthless dictators when it suited our purpose. We supported Battista's regime, and we've paid the price for 50 years. Castro is a saint compared to Battista, who fled with as much of his country's wealth as he could stuff into his offshore accounts.

--Dunbar

I don't disagree with your characterizations, I would only point out that while "better" than Battista, Castro has allowed great suffering by the people of Cuba...of course, this rather stupid embargo that the US persists with for obvious internal political reasons hasn't helped.

I see the communists and the right wing wackos are out on this thread. On a lighter note, you have to see the NY Post cover on this one and this conspiracy story. Cover is very funny in my opinion, but I really didn't like the guy.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/07/06/comm...tler/index.htm

[ateamstupid]

Nice to see The Post taking the high road as always, LOL!

Originally Posted by somerfrost

You really do have trouble with any type of abstract thought, don't you? It's not about giving credit to Castro, it's the thought that was expressed...and from a ruthless dictator no less! You continue to focus on the person and not the idea...

My point is ... that vicious murderers should never be given credit for anything ... not even for feeding stray dogs.

I'm sure there are more honorable sources who are quotable ... focus on them.

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

BB, that's ridiculous. Yes, stock market savings are only as valuable as the people buying and selling think they are, but when a company chooses to give company stock for pensions, there is an understanding by the employee that the stock is worth about what the company says it is. Kenny Boy and Co. were lying about and covering up the true state of the company's finances, and continuing to push purchasing the stock on their employees. If the employees knew the true state of the company's finances, do you think they would have held onto their stock? Come on. This is not like being promised a Rolex and then not given it as a gift; pensions are part and parcel of the employment package (if a package includes them). They aren't a Christmas bonus. What this is like is using all of your savings for a Renoir that you were told over and over was genuine and that you could resell at a profit in the future and then finding out the guy who sold it to you knew it was a fake that he bought at Wal-Mart. And then the guy dies before you can sue him.

Under your theory, people should be putting their assets only in cash in their mattresses, because otherwise it's just theoretical-- any interest-bearing investment you do requires putting the money in something theoretical-- like a company's future. Pulling out of the stock market would crush big business in this nation. Odd line of thinking for a rightwinger, don't you agree?

Well, at least they have Social Security. It'll keep them off the streets, anyway, if not much else. Forty percent of your average yearly income is not a lot, but it's a safety net, anyway. Yay for FDR! Still saving the average American from the evils of the modern-day robber barons.

My point is that the assets weren't some poor schnook's "life savings" ... as if Lay destroyed a bank where people had been squirreling their money.

Any reputable financial advisor will say that it's unwise to keep all your assets ... savings, pension, whatever ... in one stock. Diversify ... diversify ... diversify is what they all preach. Those who kept all of their pension assets in Enron stock were as unwise as Ken Lay was crooked.

In any case ... it wasn't their "life savings" which were lost.