Stress Kills: Ken Lay Dead at 64

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Ken Lay was a crook ... but please allow me to repeat the facts of this "pension" stuff ...

No Enron employees lost any of their own money. What they "lost" was the paper value of the Enron stocks which had been pledged to their pension plan. The value of these stocks was never "theirs" to begin with ... it was only something they were told they would get in the future.

It's like someone saying they'll give you a Rolex watch on your next birthday ... then not doing it.

Castigate Mr. Lay for being a crook ... but please stop wailing about the "little people" who had their "life savings" stolen from them ... because there weren't any.

BB, that's ridiculous. Yes, stock market savings are only as valuable as the people buying and selling think they are, but when a company chooses to give company stock for pensions, there is an understanding by the employee that the stock is worth about what the company says it is. Kenny Boy and Co. were lying about and covering up the true state of the company's finances, and continuing to push purchasing the stock on their employees. If the employees knew the true state of the company's finances, do you think they would have held onto their stock? Come on. This is not like being promised a Rolex and then not given it as a gift; pensions are part and parcel of the employment package (if a package includes them). They aren't a Christmas bonus. What this is like is using all of your savings for a Renoir that you were told over and over was genuine and that you could resell at a profit in the future and then finding out the guy who sold it to you knew it was a fake that he bought at Wal-Mart. And then the guy dies before you can sue him.

Under your theory, people should be putting their assets only in cash in their mattresses, because otherwise it's just theoretical-- any interest-bearing investment you do requires putting the money in something theoretical-- like a company's future. Pulling out of the stock market would crush big business in this nation. Odd line of thinking for a rightwinger, don't you agree?

Well, at least they have Social Security. It'll keep them off the streets, anyway, if not much else. Forty percent of your average yearly income is not a lot, but it's a safety net, anyway. Yay for FDR! Still saving the average American from the evils of the modern-day robber barons.

[GenuineRisk]

Oh my God; I can't believe BB finally goaded me into really getting into it with him. Darnit! You suckered me! Sigh...

But I do apologize for using "ridiculous." I would prefer to keep away from name-calling and things like that in these things. You may have very good backup for your argument. To quote Rhett Butler, "I shall watch with interest."

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

BB, that's ridiculous. Yes, stock market savings are only as valuable as the people buying and selling think they are, but when a company chooses to give company stock for pensions, there is an understanding by the employee that the stock is worth about what the company says it is. Kenny Boy and Co. were lying about and covering up the true state of the company's finances, and continuing to push purchasing the stock on their employees. If the employees knew the true state of the company's finances, do you think they would have held onto their stock? Come on. This is not like being promised a Rolex and then not given it as a gift; pensions are part and parcel of the employment package (if a package includes them). They aren't a Christmas bonus. What this is like is using all of your savings for a Renoir that you were told over and over was genuine and that you could resell at a profit in the future and then finding out the guy who sold it to you knew it was a fake that he bought at Wal-Mart. And then the guy dies before you can sue him.

Under your theory, people should be putting their assets only in cash in their mattresses, because otherwise it's just theoretical-- any interest-bearing investment you do requires putting the money in something theoretical-- like a company's future. Pulling out of the stock market would crush big business in this nation. Odd line of thinking for a rightwinger, don't you agree?

Well, at least they have Social Security. It'll keep them off the streets, anyway, if not much else. Forty percent of your average yearly income is not a lot, but it's a safety net, anyway. Yay for FDR! Still saving the average American from the evils of the modern-day robber barons.

My point is that the assets weren't some poor schnook's "life savings" ... as if Lay destroyed a bank where people had been squirreling their money.

Any reputable financial advisor will say that it's unwise to keep all your assets ... savings, pension, whatever ... in one stock. Diversify ... diversify ... diversify is what they all preach. Those who kept all of their pension assets in Enron stock were as unwise as Ken Lay was crooked.

In any case ... it wasn't their "life savings" which were lost.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

My point is that the assets weren't some poor schnook's "life savings" ... as if Lay destroyed a bank where people had been squirreling their money.

Any reputable financial advisor will say that it's unwise to keep all your assets ... savings, pension, whatever ... in one stock. Diversify ... diversify ... diversify is what they all preach. Those who kept all of their pension assets in Enron stock were as unwise as Ken Lay was crooked.

In any case ... it wasn't their "life savings" which were lost.

It's what they'd planned to retire on. If that's not your life savings, what is?

Yes, duh about diversification, but you'd be amazed at how many people don't know to do that. They don't teach you it in school. Or to put money aside BESIDES Social Security, because 40 percent of your average income ain't much to retire on... as those poor Enron folks suckered by Lay are going to find out.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

It's what they'd planned to retire on. If that's not your life savings, what is?

Yes, duh about diversification, but you'd be amazed at how many people don't know to do that. They don't teach you it in school. Or to put money aside BESIDES Social Security, because 40 percent of your average income ain't much to retire on... as those poor Enron folks suckered by Lay are going to find out.

Genuine Risk,
You got that right. Unfortunately, with his death also go away all charges and findings. At the time that the Enron were given options for their retirements, they couldn't touch their "holdings" unless they were over 50.
That was the law as of 2003, and it effected 20% of all "stock holders", not only Enron's. Since then, the law has been amended, however it still effects 8% of those that hold stock in the companies they hope to retire from.
Some of Enron's workers have really been "hung out to dry". There was an item on the news about a 74 year old man that helped build the company, aand lost over 1.3 million in earned retirement benefits. Now he's living on SS.
It seems with recent events, Ken Lay is guilty of nothing as he wasn't sentenced. That's the law.
All the rest that worked all of their lives are S h Outta Luck.
Justice?
Not in this country.
A shame that they can't even touch the estate.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Genuine Risk,
You got that right. Unfortunately, with his death also go away all charges and findings. At the time that the Enron were given options for their retirements, they couldn't touch their "holdings" unless they were over 50.
That was the law as of 2003, and it effected 20% of all "stock holders", not only Enron's. Since then, the law has been amended, however it still effects 8% of those that hold stock in the companies they hope to retire from.
Some of Enron's workers have really been "hung out to dry". There was an item on the news about a 74 year old man that helped build the company, aand lost over 1.3 million in earned retirement benefits. Now he's living on SS.
It seems with recent events, Ken Lay is guilty of nothing as he wasn't sentenced. That's the law.
All the rest that worked all of their lives are S h Outta Luck.
Justice?
Not in this country.
A shame that they can't even touch the estate.

Disgusting. The guy got off completely.