Excuses

[Cajungator26]

I couldn't agree more.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I couldn't disagree more

I'm stuck in the middle.

[JDank34]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I couldn't disagree more

ridiculous comment

[blackthroatedwind]

It's not a question of downgrading Street Sense, per se, because he gets perfect trips, but when you objectively analyze races you have to take into account trips. The bottom line is that things have worked out extraordinarily well for Street Sense in a number of his races. Now, part of this is because he is a closer, but not a plodder, so he has the ability to put himself into races and not necessarily become victimized by slow paces. This sets him apart from, say, a horse like Dynever, who had no natural speed, and was thus constantly victimized. Thus Street Sense can sit six to eight lengths off the lead if the pace isn't as acute as it has been in these previous two races, and still close effectively. However, his trips in both the Derby and Preakness have been picture perfect, both because the paces were strong, and because he was able to navigate smoothly through the field. Some of this is because he is a handy horse who seems comfortable inside of horses, while many are not, but there is no denying that he has been the fortunate recipiant of unusually friendly circumstances.

The bottom line is that this won't always be the case and until Street Sense overcomes a mediocre trip, such as Curlin did in this Preakness, he still has something to prove. At least to objective observers that is.

[fpsoxfan]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It's not a question of downgrading Street Sense, per se, because he gets perfect trips, but when you objectively analyze races you have to take into account trips. The bottom line is that things have worked out extraordinarily well for Street Sense in a number of his races. Now, part of this is because he is a closer, but not a plodder, so he has the ability to put himself into races and not necessarily become victimized by slow paces. This sets him apart from, say, a horse like Dynever, who had no natural speed, and was thus constantly victimized. Thus Street Sense can sit six to eight lengths off the lead if the pace isn't as acute as it has been in these previous two races, and still close effectively. However, his trips in both the Derby and Preakness have been picture perfect, both because the paces were strong, and because he was able to navigate smoothly through the field. Some of this is because he is a handy horse who seems comfortable inside of horses, while many are not, but there is no denying that he has been the fortunate recipiant of unusually friendly circumstances.

The bottom line is that this won't always be the case and until Street Sense overcomes a mediocre trip, such as Curlin did in this Preakness, he still has something to prove. At least to objective observers that is.

Not to sound shallow, but winning the BC Juvenille,the Kentucky Derby and coming in second in the Preakness sort of goes a long way towards proving himself.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by fpsoxfan

[/b]

Not to sound shallow, but winning the BC Juvenille,the Kentucky Derby and coming in second in the Preakness sort of goes a long way towards proving himself.

saying that a horse still has something to prove to some observers, is not the same thing as saying that the horse hasn't proved a lot already.

you are right, he has proved himself to a large extent, more than most of his class.

But BTW is also right I think, based on the trips he has had there is more to prove. I don't think he was at all denigrating what the horse has accomplished.

[fpsoxfan]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

saying that a horse still has something to prove to some observers, is not the same thing as saying that the horse hasn't proved a lot already.

you are right, he has proved himself to a large extent, more than most of his class.

But BTW is also right I think, based on the trips he has had there is more to prove. I don't think he was at all denigrating what the horse has accomplished.

No..you are right. And I'm not saying he's ready to be put into the Horse racing Hall of Fame..but sometimes what a horse has already accomplished can get lost in some of these debates.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It's not a question of downgrading Street Sense, per se, because he gets perfect trips, but when you objectively analyze races you have to take into account trips. The bottom line is that things have worked out extraordinarily well for Street Sense in a number of his races. Now, part of this is because he is a closer, but not a plodder, so he has the ability to put himself into races and not necessarily become victimized by slow paces. This sets him apart from, say, a horse like Dynever, who had no natural speed, and was thus constantly victimized. Thus Street Sense can sit six to eight lengths off the lead if the pace isn't as acute as it has been in these previous two races, and still close effectively. However, his trips in both the Derby and Preakness have been picture perfect, both because the paces were strong, and because he was able to navigate smoothly through the field. Some of this is because he is a handy horse who seems comfortable inside of horses, while many are not, but there is no denying that he has been the fortunate recipiant of unusually friendly circumstances.

The bottom line is that this won't always be the case and until Street Sense overcomes a mediocre trip, such as Curlin did in this Preakness, he still has something to prove. At least to objective observers that is.

Andy, very insightful comments. I understand what you are saying and I think you spelled it out extremely well. However, my questioning comes from a different place, perhaps the "other side of the coin" so to speak. With the parts above I highlighted -- from what perspective do we look at this? I mean, are these reasons to so called "downgrade" the horse and his performances? Or, as some look at it, are they positive attributes that should be looked at as all contributing to this being a very, very good horse, who might -- with more -- become a great horse, or at least accomplish "great things?"

To me, a colt, who came back as a 3yo from winning the BC as a 2yo, bucked a major trend, with his preps as well -- who has the ability to put himself into races and not become victimized -- this is a good horse. I think he should be positively complimented for those attributes rather than automatically looking to "downgrade". Now, I know you are not doing that, but I think some/many are.

A colt like this does set himself apart -- that's why we are all waiting for Dynever to win his first decent race, LOL. Sure Dynever was a talented horse, but never did reach the heights of reaching what his talent and potential marked. I am not sure that everyone would consider him a "good horse" so to speak. In my mind, a colt that can close effectively while sitting wherever he is sitting -- that's a very good thing, even more so because he can navigate, and is handy, etc. Those are very good things in my mind.

Now, here is my real question -- do you really call his trip in the Preakness as "picture perfect"

Thanks.

Eric

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I couldn't disagree more

Even you would have to admit his quick acceleration plays a big part in getting good trips.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Even you would have to admit his quick acceleration plays a big part in getting good trips.

Yes, DrugS is denying that Street Sense's inate talent, which he can't admit is greater than he believed, makes it much easier for him to get these advantageous trips than the average middle to deep closer.

He's a very good horse. That's the bottom line. But, as much as I like him, I would like to see him perform well under adversity. Though, in many ways he did this in the Keeneland Breeder's Futurity. Now I would love to see it at a higher level.

[10 pnt move up]

dynever, now thats a name that i thought was long gone, in more ways then one

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

dynever, now thats a name that i thought was long gone, in more ways then one

He was a very talented horse who was a victim of being a plodder. I used him as an example.

I could have used Giacomo....but I thought I would use an actual good horse.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He was a very talented horse who was a victim of being a plodder. I used him as an example.

I could have used Giacomo....but I thought I would use an actual good horse.

You really should have used Giacomo, 3/4ths of the board dont even remember who Dynever was.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

dynever, now thats a name that i thought was long gone, in more ways then one

It is. I think the Arabs changed it. Also long gone were all the horses he was trying to pass in the stretch. Well, at least one per race.

[blackthroatedwind]

At least the two of you were able to extract the important aspects of my post. And, most incredibly, one of you didn't include his usual massive grammatical and spelling errors.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Yes, DrugS is denying that Street Sense's inate talent, which he can't admit is greater than he believed, makes it much easier for him to get these advantageous trips than the average middle to deep closer.

I believe I once said somewhere that Street Sense would very likely have been capable of running a sub 21 quarter at a 2-year-old in training sale if trained to do so. Obviously a horse like Curlin couldn't do that.

SS rated nicely, just a head or a neck off of something like a 21.62 first quarter in his maiden win going 6.5 furlongs.

If anyone remembers Arazi, who blew a lead going 4.5 or 5 furlongs in his debut---they'd take him way back in the early stages of his dirt races, and he had one of those explosive, hard-to-sustain move as well.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I believe I once said somewhere that Street Sense would very likely have been capable of running a sub 21 quarter at a 2-year-old in training sale if trained to do so. Obviously a horse like Curlin couldn't do that.

SS rated nicely, just a head or a neck off of something like a 21.62 first quarter in his maiden win going 6.5 furlongs.

If anyone remembers Arazi, who blew a lead going 4.5 or 5 furlongs in his debut---they'd take him way back in the early stages of his dirt races, and he had one of those explosive, hard-to-sustain move as well.

Arazi, to me is the greatest horse of all time, but for personal reasons.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Arazi, to me is the greatest horse of all time, but for personal reasons.

I assume it had nothing to do with his eye-catching 17th place to 3rd place in a drop-of-a-hat move as the 4/5 favorite in the '92 Kentucky Derby? It's too bad he didn't make that move unmolested up a live rail, and get to save all the ground....or his comparisons with all the great horses in history might not have died such a swift death on that day.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Yes, DrugS is denying that Street Sense's inate talent, which he can't admit is greater than he believed, makes it much easier for him to get these advantageous trips than the average middle to deep closer.

He's a very good horse. That's the bottom line. But, as much as I like him, I would like to see him perform well under adversity. Though, in many ways he did this in the Keeneland Breeder's Futurity. Now I would love to see it at a higher level.

Well, you speak to my comments here, LOL. Excellent point(s).

Eric