Met Mile field?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I really hope you don't believe that. If you do....I take great offense to that suggestion.

You've offered nothing to suggest otherwise.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

You've offered nothing to suggest otherwise.

You deny that Street Sense had a perfect setup/trip?

[philcski]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

You deny that Street Sense had a perfect setup/trip?

In this case, what does it matter? He MADE the trip. Most horses would have quit or checked rather than move through the cracks he did.

I challenge you to reorder the Derby field based on if so-and-so had gotten a better trip. If I hear Curlin had a bad trip once again I'll puke. It didn't matter, he wasn't finishing in the exacta either way.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I love when horses get lucky trips and people say "they made the trip."

It warms my heart.

When you pass 16 horses without leaving the rail, on a slightly rail-favoring track, you can't rationally say the horse gets sole credit for "making the trip."

Of course Street Sense gets some credit for accelerating fast enough to get through before holes got to close on him....

He's already proven what he's capable of (fastest Beyer in BC Juvie history) when he gets that trip.

[blackthroatedwind]

The bottom line, and this is really tiresome, is that only one horse in the Derby ran arguably as well as Street Sense and that's obviously Hard Spun. Good trip or not, nobody was even close, and Street Sense was, under no circumstances, worse than second best. In the BC Juvenile, where obviously he had a great trip, he won by ten lengths and was clearly the best horse regardless.

There are many perfect trip winners that can be argued under different circumstances would have not even been close to winning. Street Sense is simply not one of these.

Nobody is denying that Street Sense had a good trip. However, you seem to be the only one in denial that he's clearly at the top of this class ( even if he may have mild company ).

[philcski]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I love when horses get lucky trips and people say "they made the trip."

It warms my heart.

When you pass 16 horses without leaving the rail, on a slightly rail-favoring track, you can't rationally say the horse gets sole credit for "making the trip."

Of course Street Sense gets some credit for accelerating fast enough to get through before holes got to close on him....

He's already proven what he's capable of (fastest Beyer in BC Juvie history) when he gets that trip.

This is what I'm talking about!!! Bad, mediocre, and most good horses cannot switch gears fast enough to take advantage of said positions, thereby "creating" a good trip. The first thing I do after the Derby is determine how legitimate the winner will be in the Preakness, and I cannot make an argument for anyone in the race besides Hard Spun, regardless of what you think the trip was. The only knock I have against Street Sense is whether his obvious love for Churchill translates to Pimlico. Incidentally, I'd love to book all the bets on Curlin in the Preakness who supposedly had a rough trip in the Derby.

Saturday was rail favoring? I must have been watching a different track.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

The bottom line, and this is really tiresome, is that only one horse in the Derby ran arguably as well as Street Sense and that's obviously Hard Spun. Good trip or not, nobody was even close, and Street Sense was, under no circumstances, worse than second best. In the BC Juvenile, where obviously he had a great trip, he won by ten lengths and was clearly the best horse regardless.

There are many perfect trip winners that can be argued under different circumstances would have not even been close to winning. Street Sense is simply not one of these.

Nobody is denying that Street Sense had a good trip. However, you seem to be the only one in denial that he's clearly at the top of this class ( even if he may have mild company ).

My points exactly.

[philcski]

Just as aside, as this is the Met Mile thread, I got a huge figure for the Westchester (what equates to a 114 Beyer), and this is even doing something I don't normally do- breaking out the route races as they were exceptionally fast all day. Once this was done, the other two mile races fell perfectly in line with the runners' capabilities and the Westchester remained fast.
Basically the figure indicated Sun King ran back to the '06 Met Mile, and Utopia was just better. Take it for what it's worth. I'm crossing my fingers it's a good number more for the sake of Sun King than my own wallet.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

There are many perfect trip winners that can be argued under different circumstances would have not even been close to winning. Street Sense is simply not one of these.

Please link me to where I said Street Sense was anything less than 1st or 2nd best?

His previous two races, with that exact same trip, were AT LEAST as good as his Derby performance. He won the Juvenile by double digits with a record figure in one---and was perhaps the only 3yo ever to run a triple digit Beyer, off a layoff, going two-turns on the demanding Tampa Downs surface.

EVERYONE knows what kind of horse he is with that trip (an excellent horse) however, from watching films of his races when he did not have that trip, I believe he has bad habits, and will run alarmingly unimpressive, if he has to rally wide without a pace setup.

The fact that he ran better than arguably all but zero or one horse---it has nothing to do with my belief that this horse will have problems when he can't skate inside of horses.

[ARyan]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Please link me to where I said Street Sense was anything less than 1st or 2nd best?

His previous two races, with that exact same trip, were AT LEAST as good as his Derby performance. He won the Juvenile by double digits with a record figure in one---and was perhaps the only 3yo ever to run a triple digit Beyer, off a layoff, going two-turns on the demanding Tampa Downs surface.

EVERYONE knows what kind of horse he is with that trip (an excellent horse) however, from watching films of his races when he did not have that trip, I believe he has bad habits, and will run alarmingly unimpressive, if he has to rally wide without a pace setup.

The fact that he ran better than arguably all but zero or one horse---it has nothing to do with my belief that this horse will have problems when he can't skate inside of horses.

I do not think SS had a great trip in the Tampa Bay Derby. The rail was DEAD DEAD DEAD all day, and he dug in and held off a game AGS. The Bluegrass didn't seem like and ideal trip, and he ran well. We can also see now that they were not going to push the horse to much in that race, as it was just a extended workout for the Derby for him.

Furthermore, SS did not have ideal trips in his two races (at Arlington and Keeneland) before the BC Juv. He was still running gamely in those races, losing by less then 2 lengths in both of those races.

I do not think you have backed up any of your comments with any original insightful, well thought out material, just biased opinion.

[ARyan]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

The bottom line, and this is really tiresome, is that only one horse in the Derby ran arguably as well as Street Sense and that's obviously Hard Spun. Good trip or not, nobody was even close, and Street Sense was, under no circumstances, worse than second best. In the BC Juvenile, where obviously he had a great trip, he won by ten lengths and was clearly the best horse regardless.

There are many perfect trip winners that can be argued under different circumstances would have not even been close to winning. Street Sense is simply not one of these.

Nobody is denying that Street Sense had a good trip. However, you seem to be the only one in denial that he's clearly at the top of this class ( even if he may have mild company ).

Great post.