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#1
05-09-2007, 08:01 AM
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B-
No, my sense of personal responsibility is not limited to the male of the species, it's just easier in the case of pregnancy, for him to avoid it, as a woman dumb enough to let a guy stick an unrubbered penis into her when she doesn't want to get pregnant is going to be stuck with addressing the consequences one way or another whether she wants to be or not. I was limiting my example to fiscal responsibility. Lots of people don't know the first thing about how the credit card industry works. Because at no point in their lives are they taught how to handle money. We focus obsessively on 'readin' ritin' and 'rithmatic (all well and good) but I see a real dearth in education's attempts to teach things kids will really need as grownups. Those of us who were fortunate enough to grow up in middle-class households with parents who had middle-class parents who had the time to explain these things to us had a leg up, but it had nothing to do with personal responsibility and everything to do with being a member of the Lucky Sperm Club, as it were (a name I usually reserve for the hereditary wealthy, but face it, as Americans most of us are members of the Lucky Sperm Club compared to the majority of the world, especially if we're Caucasian, too). I've had to explain the difference between a savings and a money market account to friends with Master's Degrees. It's not easy, especially if you didn't learn it young. When it comes to the credit card industry, I have nothing but unkind feelings for the business- I see those tables out at college campuses every fall, nabbing every kid who stops for more than ten seconds, none of whom have any idea how to manage their credit because A) they're 18 and B) no one has taught them this. Then they run up debt and spend the rest of their lives trying to dig out from under it. I read about how they target the elderly, whose comprehension skills are already declining, due to age. They are bad news, as most loan sharks are. Hell, I pay off my balance every single month. You know what the credit card industry's term for people like me is? "Deadbeat." Thanks. Thanks a lot. But do you think the credit card industry would support educating its consumers? The same industry that targets people who have declared bankruptcy with credit card offers (the other fun story my friend has to tell about her experience with debt- getting bombarded by offers from Visa, etc., AFTER they filed). Please. They want people not to understand because then people will continue to give them record profits. It's deceptive and it's wrong. Personal responsibility is well and good, but it needs to start from a level playing field, at least where information is concerned. This industry is doing everything it can to keep Americans dumb and indebted. Apologies- yes, deregulation did start under Carter's administration (he has to work with a Republican Senate, yes?  ) and continued through Reagan's culminating in the lovely Savings and Loan scandal (remember that one?) which resulted in all of us paying for rich people's taking advantage of an idealogical belief in unregulated capitalism. Reagan presided over the largest tax hike in the last years of his Presidency, remember?
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Gentlemen! We're burning daylight! Riders up! -Bill Murray 
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#2
05-09-2007, 08:34 AM
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As for the spending thing (and then I'm off the soapbox for the day, I promise)-
Yes, I agree there is a huge amount of PR (personal responsibility) involved in spending habits. But I think it's easy to dismiss the pervasiveness of advertising and the thousands of small and large ways we're pressured to buy buy buy as having no effect, when in fact, I think they are hugely influential on our natures, especially when we're young. I was a (pardon the pun) a huge fattist for quite a while- I considered obesity the height of personal weakness. As a small female, I got fed up with fat people spotting the empty seat next to me on the bus, plane, whatever and taking advantage of the extra space my small frame afforded them, so I spent many a ride jammed up against someone else's sweaty, smelly excess abdomen. I feel the trade-off for me not being able to reach things on high shelves is that I don't fill up the entire seat on a bus and I never have problems with "leg room," whatever that is. And so I found it unfair to be squished because someone else can't keep her hands out of the Ding-Dong box.But you know what? Obesity ain't that simple. Admittedly, I don't buy the "genetics' argument because obesity rates have tripled in the past 30 years and we just don't evolve that quickly. But we are surrounded by food. Surrounded. And it's pushed at us relentlessly. And we don't evolve that fast and our bodies and brains are, I think, hard-wired to remember a time when we spent most of our lives starving (heck, obesity was once the height of beauty because it was rare). And I think advertising, etc., takes advantage of that and eventually most people give in. And once fat, I think it's really hard, a lifelong struggle, in fact, to address it. I think losing a large amount of weight is harder than quitting smoking (you still have to eat, after all) and props to those who manage to take off a large amount of weight and keep it off- that's a war they never stop fighting, and in a society where they are surrounded by images and messages saying "eat this! eat this! eat this!" So yes, body health is a personal responsibility, but I think our culture makes it as difficult as possible to stay healthy- little access to exercise in our car-dominated culture, sedentary jobs and endless push push push of foods that have little nutritional value. Hell, I just had chocolate and wheat thins for breakfast. Mmm! Healthy! Well, I did have a glass of milk, too... And that carries over to our consumerism. It's a high to buy something. I remember sitting in front of the TV as a kid, listing the things I wanted for Christmas-- in June. I lost that acquisitiveness somewhere in the wake of my mom's death, since you can't buy anything to make THAT feel better, but you know, a lot of kids aren't as lucky as I was to have their mom die. (said with sarcasm. I can't believe I feel it necesary to explain that, but again, people can surprise you with what they don't understand) Personal responsibility is all well and good and essential, but it's not the entire answer when your entire society is built on a system (advertising) designed to keep you spending more than you have. Is there an easy solution? Gads, no. I'm a believer in regulated capitalism, and a business has to advertise a product. But I think now, in our negative-savings society, we're seeing the effects of unregulated advertising and the thing is, when it comes crashing down, all of us, even those who are saving what they can, will feel it. Just as we had to be the ones to bail out the Savings & Loan crooks. And I think, in a society dominated with a command to buybuybuy it's wrong to permit unregulated lending. It's wrong. It allows wealthy corporations to take advantage of the weak and the poor and that's as close to evil as I can find. Oh- I forgot- my friends didn't move from Buffalo because my friend's husband's mother was (still is, I think) quite ill and he is her entire support system. Though I imagine your response would be that he shouldn't have had a mom who got sick, right? Or she should have been tough enough to take life without any family around her, right?I'm also not sure where they would have found the money to move. It's expensive, moving! Done, promise. I have a play to get written today (not on economics; on aging. With zombies! And cupcakes!) and actors to rehearse. Carry on with your unkind comments without me, hi_Im_god. My heart breaks to think of your low opinion. I'm cut. Really I am. You too, STS. Can you see the virtual tears spilling on my keyboard? And STS- I worked three jobs in college, along with full-time classes. Nothing like an 8:30AM to 11PM day five days a week and an 8:30-6PM on the other two to really make a girl depressed. So yeah, I know from hard work. Did your wife work, too, while you were working two jobs? What did she do? In my friends' case, he had to limit his search to a night job, because she worked full-time (which was six days' a week, by the way) during the day and they had no money for day care, duh). What did you do with your kids while your wife was (I assume from your tone) working, too? Or wasn't she? It was a happy ending at the end, though- she was able to switch jobs and found one that also included health insurance, but it took a few years of looking. He's working now, too. But it took time; it's not a magic solution. You have to find the d*mn job.
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Gentlemen! We're burning daylight! Riders up! -Bill Murray
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#3
01-15-2008, 08:48 PM
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#4
01-18-2008, 06:04 PM
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Awesome. Tis how I feel.
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#5
01-19-2008, 11:27 AM
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Good stuff, Randall, though I'm heading more towards "the sky is falling" the more I read on the housing loan situation, which is now spilling into auto loan. I sure hope I'm wrong.
There is some theorizing that what we're seeing is the end of what has been considered the American Way of Life (really just for the past 50 years, but people get quickly adjusted to being comfortable)- interesting blog post: http://jameshowardkunstler.typepad.c...er****_nation/ I also found comments on John Cole's Balloon-Juice's thread, "We Are All Sub-prime, Now" interesting reading: http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=9510#comments I don't know what I think about it- I'm not good at snap judgments so I have to mull most things, but I do think this is bigger than a year-long recession. And I don't think the gov't will leave things alone and let the industries that should fail, fail. They didn't during the junk-bond scandal of the 1980's- instead, they bailed out the industry and passed the bill along to you and me. Or rather, my parent, as I wasn't working yet, though I'm sure I'm probably still paying for it, as our DT'ers kids will be paying for Iraq. Borrow and spend, that's our Administration's way. And Americans adopted it as their own way, too. It's funny when I get accused of favoring "redistribution of income" because what we have now is just as much about redistribution of income; it's just that it's distributing it upwards, through corporate welfare, inflated executive salary, underpaid rank-and-file workers and an increasingly regressive tax rate. Who was it who said it was wrong that his secretary paid a higher tax rate than he did? Buffet? Gates? One of them. The US gov't has a great hand in redistributing income- it sends it to the top, where most of it stays. Hey, if you're satisfied with how things are going, great; you know how to vote in 2008. Me, I don't think that's right; I prefer a society with a middle class. And I don't think a higher top tax rate will lead to violence and rioting in the streets- Europe has a lot of riots, but I don't recall any being linked to the tax rate. The wealthy don't resort to violence; they don't have to. They resort to white-collar crime and bribing gov't officials. We've been redistributing income upwards for 50 years now, while at the same time telling middle- and lower-class Americans they can still have it all and not pay for it and now the cracks are really starting to show. It took us quite a while to get here, and it'll take quite a while to get back out. If we can- now we also deal with a world that is catching up to us, and is going to want their fair share of the resource pie. And that's not going to shift back in our favor- the US share of the world GNP is declining and it's going to continue. And as their purchasing power increases, we may see ourselves competing for the same cheap crap we depend on them selling us now. And we don't have the manufacturing jobs to make it ourselves. As for solutions? I don't know. Re-regulate the credit industry for one- put a limit on interest rates so Americans in debt have a chance to dig themselves back out. Regulate loaning. And yes, for once, let the companies that should go under, go under. But how do you tell Americans to save when the nation's economy depends on them going shopping? There are a lot of foreclosed houses in the neighborhood I'm in right now (I'm living out of town for a few weeks)- it's really depressing. I wonder if maybe the Baby Boomers are really God's chosen people- born after the Great Depression and most of them will die before the bill fully comes due for the easy life most of them lived, economically speaking. (No offense to the Boomers- very grateful for Civil Rights and Women's Lib and all that. The Beatles were pretty good, too. )Thanks for posting, Randall. Good to hear from you again.
__________________
Gentlemen! We're burning daylight! Riders up! -Bill Murray
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#6
01-19-2008, 11:59 AM
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The sell off that is going on... I see opportunity. I am not close to retiring. I lived through a real estate crisis in th 80's. Panic. Followed by a war. Panic. The 90's turned very good. China and India rearing up has the possibility of being very good for the US in some scenarios. There are also large sections of the country that are not getting hit as hard by the mortage debacle. Next five years there is going to be some very big innovation in medicine, pollution control, nanotechnology, I think. Much pain now. I dont think the market reacts 5 years ahead though. If one has money, I think its buy time. I am looking at a longer time frame and I am optimistic.
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#7
01-20-2008, 03:52 PM
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PS- Morty, I am, as always, flattered by your obsession with me. I hope things are okay with you, though. While, judging from most of the posts of yours I've read, I understand you dislike women, that's okay with me- hey, I dislike raisins (though the difference between us being that I will, on occasion, eat a raisin. ). We can't all like everything. But previously, your posts were often amusing enough to more than make up for the vitriol. Sadly, now, they seem more angry than anything else- your most recent post is, I believe, the first one that expressed a wish I would die in an accident (unless you've posted that earlier; I confess my reading of your posts has dropped off lately). I do hope whatever is going on in your life works itself out soon. I'll play the National Anthem for you if that will help.
=========== r u saying you actually pay attention to what I say..even though you say you don't?? I do not wish for you to die...especially since you would like me to eat you.I merely said perhaps a good,strong collision with a very hard object might snap some sense into you. I ,in truth, adore your mind as I find women with minds very rare. What do you do when alone at night...in the dark? I have a feeling it's not hand shadows. Last edited by Mortimer : 01-20-2008 at 05:16 PM.
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#8
01-20-2008, 05:12 PM
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PS- Morty, I am, as always, flattered by your obsession with me. I hope things are okay with you, though. While, judging from most of the posts of yours I've read, I understand you dislike women, that's okay with me
============== I'm picking and choosing here..if you don't mind. I am proud as punch that you enjoy my infatuation with you..and things are ok with me. I am also giddy over the fact you have judged me to be a woman hater...and that you only read the posts centered on that hatred. ..and that it is "ok" with you. It's just all this doesn't follow..ya know? A non sequitur...ya might say. Do you fellatio-poo on the first date...by the way?
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#10
01-19-2008, 07:16 PM
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i've been reading sky is falling, we're heading for a recession talk for a few years now.
then you read economists who say we are NOT headed in that direction. then you see conflicting news, sales up, the dow is down, but unemployment is falling, new jobs are rising. the housing market was inflated a couple of years ago, with people and banks falling all over each other trying to get anyone into a home-including people who had NO business buying. they talked themselves into getting an ARM, and then hoped like hell it didn't adjust up--which shows incredible naivete. now those who dug too deep are in too deep, and banks who overreached are hurting. so, those who are in the right position will make out, as always. those who are ready to buy are waiting til the price gets low enough. a lot of this could be avoided by people who find themselves in trouble getting on the phone with their debtors, and coming up with a solution. but too many ignore the second and third notices, stick their head in the sand, and then find they've gotten in way too deep to get out. and so the businesses who find themselves in a tailspin suddenly want US (the govt) to bail them out for their over-reaching. it's ridiculous. but i also remember years ago hearing how the american dream was ending, that home ownership was going down, etc, etc. ebb and flow. we've been thru this (and worse) before, and we'll get thru it again. and again. and again.
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Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. Abraham Lincoln
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#11
01-20-2008, 03:01 PM
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Danzig and Pgardn, obviously I hope you're both right and I'm wrong- I don't want an economic tailspin any more than anyone else. But looking over the past 50 years, it seems that in most every major field, energy, food, etc., we've been paying far less than the actual costs of things. And at some point that has to come due. We were protected before by a lack of globalization and the fact that large population nations like China, India etc., were so far behind us, economically and developmentally. They're not so far behind anymore, and they're not going back- our portion of the world GNP is shrinking, and it's going to keep shrinking, simply because they've become more productive. And we've not put enough money into our own infrastructure and we're starting to see the effects of that.
If the rest of the world wasn't coming up so fast I would think we might have time to right what we've been doing wrong and still be the top economic power, but I think we're seeing the end of empire. Again, though, very much hope you're right and I'm wrong. Danzig, I think you're right, too, that the gov't will bail out these companies and their predatory lending practices. Or rather, you and I will be bailing them out, as it's our money the government will take to do it. And while I agree about people needing to take responsibility for their actions, in the case of the sub-prime loans, I think much of the responsibility falls on the companies- persuading people of the value of something to the extent that you make them let go of their common sense is the trade of the huckster and the swindler, and it's why we have anti-fraud laws. But of course, we've all merrily bought our cheap food and our cheap gas for years, without thinking anything of it, so maybe it's no surprise we would also expect cheap housing. And yeah, pgardn, I do think a lot of people will figure out how to make money out of the current situation; I'm just not sure how yet. But, in the meantime, I'll continue to stay out of debt and put money towards retirement (though I am looking at moving more of my money into mutual funds focused on the international market. Though I'm the genius who got into the market just about at its peak in 2000. D'oh! I did benefit from continuing to invest during the low years right after, so yay for dollar-cost averaging.) PS- Morty, I am, as always, flattered by your obsession with me. I hope things are okay with you, though. While, judging from most of the posts of yours I've read, I understand you dislike women, that's okay with me- hey, I dislike raisins (though the difference between us being that I will, on occasion, eat a raisin. ). We can't all like everything. But previously, your posts were often amusing enough to more than make up for the vitriol. Sadly, now, they seem more angry than anything else- your most recent post is, I believe, the first one that expressed a wish I would die in an accident (unless you've posted that earlier; I confess my reading of your posts has dropped off lately). I do hope whatever is going on in your life works itself out soon. I'll play the National Anthem for you if that will help.
__________________
Gentlemen! We're burning daylight! Riders up! -Bill Murray
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#14
01-20-2008, 05:38 PM
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I don't think most of you quite pick up the subcarrier.
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#15
01-20-2008, 05:40 PM
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I put in a few good words for you...just so that she may enjoy the pleasure of reading your posts again. you can thank me later...
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#16
01-20-2008, 05:42 PM
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Let me put it this way...most of you approach with your best shiny face on,but with evil thoughts in your minds.
That's not fair to your prey. I come in the back door...by surprise...and display my worst possible side.There is a point where some will hear that tune...and say ....."HEY!!...This guy's SWELL!!!" But don't ever call me a fucl<ing azzhole over nothing. See what ahm sayin' ?
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#17
01-16-2008, 06:30 AM
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Thanks for the posts Randall, rambling or not.
And for people like me who aren't big on numbers, here is a quick read on the differences between a million, billion, trillion, etc. http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Taxes/million.htm
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#18
05-09-2007, 10:42 AM
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great read Randall I just got around to it, it will be only a matter of time til the dollar roars back as markets in Asia start a downturn as investments start to tumble, alot of Austrailian backers in those sectors will start to see a sharp decline.
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#19
05-09-2007, 11:41 PM
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the original post in this thread was very good
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#20
01-06-2008, 05:01 PM
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Randall,
Good stuff here and I'm impressed us pony lovers are smarter than I thought. I for one come from a manufacturing back ground and seen the quick demise in the USA as a real source of concern. The retailers i.e. Walmarting of America, are just too string and too much influence. However, for me the central issue is what will happen when the war is over. I believe that war spending is fueling our economy with goods and services for the military. The greatest increase in jobs is in the military. When it goes, and I hope it does, that's a whole lot of loot and a whole lot of action sucked out of what is already a weak economy. It's disheartening to hear our politicians speak nothing of the real issues. Seems like there are so many things going bad. Too bad for the children. Spyder
__________________
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.
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Hybrid Mode
