Kobe the most criticized...

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by KY_Sasquash

First, he doesnt pass to his teammates and he says he needs help. Kobe ran off Shaq and then Shaq won a championship with DWade. He's just as much to blame as management. He put himself in this spot.

His teamates stink. It does not matter what you do if they cant help. This is not high school. Kobe may have run off Shaq but it was Laker management that traded Caron Butler, an allstar this year by the way, for Kwame Brown. You dont have to like Kobe but to blame him for the Lakers for being a crap team is wrong on many levels.

[The Bid]

If Kidd and Kobe are on the same team the women of LA are in more trouble than the competition

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Bid

If Kidd and Kobe are on the same team the women of LA are in more trouble than the competition

LOL that is funny!!

[KY_Sasquash]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

His teamates stink. It does not matter what you do if they cant help. This is not high school. Kobe may have run off Shaq but it was Laker management that traded Caron Butler, an allstar this year by the way, for Kwame Brown. You dont have to like Kobe but to blame him for the Lakers for being a crap team is wrong on many levels.

Yes trading Butler was a bad trade, but I completely disagree. You have to agree they wouldve won another championship had they not traded Shaq. It wouldve been a walkover. He didnt pull the trigger per se in trading players but he got the ball rolling by getting rid of Shaq, which led to management making poor decision on trades and draft picks, so yes, he is partially to blame.

[alysheba4]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

His teamates stink. It does not matter what you do if they cant help. This is not high school. Kobe may have run off Shaq but it was Laker management that traded Caron Butler, an allstar this year by the way, for Kwame Brown. You dont have to like Kobe but to blame him for the Lakers for being a crap team is wrong on many levels.

........ yeah all the lakers offered to " poor shaq " is a 3 year 75 mil. extension....... shaq is as much to blame as kobe, i wonder if nash could get the lakers to the playoffs without kobe...... doubt it.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by alysheba4

........ yeah all the lakers offered to " poor shaq " is a 3 year 75 mil. extension....... shaq is as much to blame as kobe, i wonder if nash could get the lakers to the playoffs without kobe...... doubt it.

Exactly...Shaq has never been the easiest guy to deal with...Laker management made the choice to keep Kobe and move Shaq, frankly I think that was the right choice BUT once they did that they owed their fans...management has dropped the ball, they haven't given Kobe any help! Same thing Kevin Garnett goes through in Minnesota...frankly, I'd like to see KG come to LA! The Lakers have no cap room so trades will be necessary but the time is now (actually it should have been a couple years ago) to bring in some talent...calling some 19 year old kid "untouchable" when he's clearly a project and a huge gamble is insane! Odom is a nice player but he has to go as well...time to step up, Laker Management!

[estreetposse]

It's too hard to feed the egos in todays game...Kobe is a great individual player, but I think it will be hard to find 4 above ave. players to complement his talent when he needs to take 40 shots a night, just not gonna happen because they need to see the ball too.

[Cannon Shell]

The Lakers may or may not have won another championship if they stayed together but Shaq is pretty close to being done and Kobe has 4 or 5 more really good years left. Kobe has a huge ego, no doubt but so did Jordan and he seemed to do ok. Of course his teams went nowhere until they got him some players.

[KY_Sasquash]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The Lakers may or may not have won another championship if they stayed together but Shaq is pretty close to being done and Kobe has 4 or 5 more really good years left. Kobe has a huge ego, no doubt but so did Jordan and he seemed to do ok. Of course his teams went nowhere until they got him some players.

Correct, except there's one major difference between Koba and Jordan-he actually passed the ball. He may have berated them in practice, but he knew how to push their buttons. Jordan had a good supporting cast and he made them a lot better than they were, especially Pippen, who somehow was voted a top 50 lifetime player, but struggled to maintain his own when Jordan was gone. I'd like to see the Lakers get Kobe a good supporting cast, not the likes of Kevin Garnett and other superstars, and see if he can produce a champoinship on his own b/c I dont think he can.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by KY_Sasquash

Correct, except there's one major difference between Koba and Jordan-he actually passed the ball. He may have berated them in practice, but he knew how to push their buttons. Jordan had a good supporting cast and he made them a lot better than they were, especially Pippen, who somehow was voted a top 50 lifetime player, but struggled to maintain his own when Jordan was gone. I'd like to see the Lakers get Kobe a good supporting cast, not the likes of Kevin Garnett and other superstars, and see if he can produce a champoinship on his own b/c I dont think he can.

Jordan had a very good supporting cast. Pippen is a hall of famer, Paxton and Kerr were great spot up shooters as was craig hodges. Cartwright, Rodman and Longley all filled the roles as rebounders and post defenders. Bj Armstrong was an effective point guard. Ron Harper was a great complimentary player even when he lost a step. Horace Grant was a very good post defender, garbage man and rebounder.
Pippen only "struggled" because he tried to fill MJ's shoes instead of being the players that he was.
No one player produces an NBA championship on his own. No one ever.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Jordan had a very good supporting cast. Pippen is a hall of famer, Paxton and Kerr were great spot up shooters as was craig hodges. Cartwright, Rodman and Longley all filled the roles as rebounders and post defenders. Bj Armstrong was an effective point guard. Ron Harper was a great complimentary player even when he lost a step. Horace Grant was a very good post defender, garbage man and rebounder.
Pippen only "struggled" because he tried to fill MJ's shoes instead of being the players that he was.
No one player produces an NBA championship on his own. No one ever.

So they had a team with players who had roles. These players on their own were just not that talented. This is my point. There is no way I could be convinced Kobe could take this same team and let people settle into a role. It would have to be set up for him. All of these players on other teams were just not the same (Rodman was already crazy after he left Detroit so Detroit got the benefit of a bit of sanity). They were a team with a clear leader (even though Pippen does not admit it) and played like a team. Kobe asked for that, and so far, it has been a failure because he is not a leader. This is my major point. He wants to so badly be viewed as a better player than Jordan and he has no concept of what it is like to be the leader of a real team. Time will tell. Give him a PG as I said, and we will see. I think this is the main thing the Lakers are lacking. Their talent is not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Lamar Odom is extremely talented but there has yet to be any sort of connection between them. When Mim returns, and Bynum is given a chance to develop, they will have every bit as talented players as the old Bull "Centers". Smush Parker is a two guard and he has no room to flower. He is clearly talented but does not have a clue what his role is besides get out of Kobe's way. Luke Walton is a very bright player who could fit perfectly in the right role but he is stymied as well, he has a role one game, and its gone the next. Kobe is still a young Jordan that can score at will. He works hard on his game, very hard. But he clearly wanted to be the man and he is running out of time now.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

His teamates stink. It does not matter what you do if they cant help. This is not high school. Kobe may have run off Shaq but it was Laker management that traded Caron Butler, an allstar this year by the way, for Kwame Brown. You dont have to like Kobe but to blame him for the Lakers for being a crap team is wrong on many levels.

Who did Jordan have for a center? Bill Cartwright, Luke Longley, Will Perdue... they were pitiful. Name a modern team that has won an NBA championship with Bigmen worse than these. Yes he had Pippen and Grant, but Im sorry that was not a super talented team. Jordan took advantage of Paxon and Kerr's abilities. He was able to use Rodman when he was already off the deep end. (No Chuck Daley to control Rodman). Those Chicago teams were Jordan with a dash of Pippen and they played TEAM ball.
Kobe will never be ever to develop the individual talents of mediocre players like Jordan did, unless he starts to understand what a leader really is. He has not a clue at this point. And there are many ways to lead. Duncan leads by letting Popovich chew him out in front of his teammates so the team as a whole buys into what they must do to win because the Spurs are just not that talented. There are many ways to make your team better as the best player.

When the Lakers get a real point guard (and Kobe lets the PG run things if he can contain himself; Jordan let BJ Armstrong, not close to a superstar) then we will know for sure. Until then, we will look at an extraordinarily talented player go nowhere. The real telling thing is Kobe and Shaq were both dissatisfied when things went wrong. How does that happen? It would not have happened with a guy like Jordan talking to Shaq.

Yeah the Spurs don't have veterans and they sure as hell don't have any talent outside of Duncan. WTF? Just cut the homer sh.it and say you don't like Kobe. Your points are ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Yeah the Spurs don't have veterans and they sure as hell don't have any talent outside of Duncan. WTF? Just cut the homer sh.it and say you don't like Kobe. Your points are ridiculous.

Pillow likes me.

Parker is super fast. Ginobili is super funky. Outside of that we got a bunch of retreads that know how to the game since you already mentioned Duncan. The Spurs of 1999 would blow the current team out of the water. We are officially older and slower.

At least I am a realistic homer.

[alysheba4]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Who did Jordan have for a center? Bill Cartwright, Luke Longley, Will Perdue... they were pitiful. Name a modern team that has won an NBA championship with Bigmen worse than these. Yes he had Pippen and Grant, but Im sorry that was not a super talented team. Jordan took advantage of Paxon and Kerr's abilities. He was able to use Rodman when he was already off the deep end. (No Chuck Daley to control Rodman). Those Chicago teams were Jordan with a dash of Pippen and they played TEAM ball.
Kobe will never be ever to develop the individual talents of mediocre players like Jordan did, unless he starts to understand what a leader really is. He has not a clue at this point. And there are many ways to lead. Duncan leads by letting Popovich chew him out in front of his teammates so the team as a whole buys into what they must do to win because the Spurs are just not that talented. There are many ways to make your team better as the best player.

When the Lakers get a real point guard (and Kobe lets the PG run things if he can contain himself; Jordan let BJ Armstrong, not close to a superstar) then we will know for sure. Until then, we will look at an extraordinarily talented player go nowhere. The real telling thing is Kobe and Shaq were both dissatisfied when things went wrong. How does that happen? It would not have happened with a guy like Jordan talking to Shaq.

........ remember Pgdn, kobe came in he was 19 and looked up to shaq......the colorado fiasco killed that relationship. plus shaq is very sensitive and childish.....he was always from day 1 busting kobes balls. whatever, its a done deal. kobe is on a glorified c.b.a roster, far worse that jordon took to the playoffs.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Who did Jordan have for a center? Bill Cartwright, Luke Longley, Will Perdue... they were pitiful. Name a modern team that has won an NBA championship with Bigmen worse than these. Yes he had Pippen and Grant, but Im sorry that was not a super talented team. Jordan took advantage of Paxon and Kerr's abilities. He was able to use Rodman when he was already off the deep end. (No Chuck Daley to control Rodman). Those Chicago teams were Jordan with a dash of Pippen and they played TEAM ball.
Kobe will never be ever to develop the individual talents of mediocre players like Jordan did, unless he starts to understand what a leader really is. He has not a clue at this point. And there are many ways to lead. Duncan leads by letting Popovich chew him out in front of his teammates so the team as a whole buys into what they must do to win because the Spurs are just not that talented. There are many ways to make your team better as the best player.

When the Lakers get a real point guard (and Kobe lets the PG run things if he can contain himself; Jordan let BJ Armstrong, not close to a superstar) then we will know for sure. Until then, we will look at an extraordinarily talented player go nowhere. The real telling thing is Kobe and Shaq were both dissatisfied when things went wrong. How does that happen? It would not have happened with a guy like Jordan talking to Shaq.

Centers are not important in the triangle offense except as rebounders and post defenders which all of the aforementioned centers were. Kwame Brown would not have played one minute for those teams. He does nothing well. Terrible player.
B.J. Armstrong was a much better point man than Smush. Why I am I even debating this? It is absurd. The Lakers have a barely functioning team and if you replaced Kobe with an average NBA player at his position they would win maybe 20 games.
By the way the Lakers would not be much better off with Shaq because he is finished as a dominant player.
Kobe is a self absorbed ego maniac. That is a given. But the problems that the Lakers are having are the cause of management getting trapped with bad contracts and weak players. They are the west coast version of the Knicks except they have a true star.