Librarians, Keepers of the Liberty

[Exceller]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

You're confusing strategies and objectives.

The objective ... the overriding goal and the duty of elected officials ... is to safeguard the lives and freedom of Americans.

One of the strategies being used to achieve that objective ... is to foster democratic systems in countries where such systems do not exist ... not simply because that would benefit the peoples of those countries ... although in fact it does ... but because experience over the past two centuries has shown that democratic countries are far less dangerous to us than dictatorial countries are.

Democracy in Iraq isn't an objective ... it's a strategy being used to achieve our objective ... which is safety and freedom for Americans.

Nonsense. The administration took the advice of shady politicians tied to the defense contractors, instead of listening to their military leaders. They lied, made up false information and weakened our military. Funny how just about all of the architects of the war never served a minute in any branch of the service.

The Real George W., George Washington, warned against getting involved with the affairs of other countries and this idiot that is now President, and his little neocons, planned this war out in the 1990's. The fact is the this administration is INCOMPETENT. That can't be argued.

Please don't tell me about strategies vs. objectives. Let me guess, you never served a day in any branch of the service, but you read a lot of books. LOL.

Originally Posted by Exceller

Nonsense. The administration took the advice of shady politicians tied to the defense contractors, instead of listening to their military leaders. They lied, made up false information and weakened our military. Funny how just about all of the architects of the war never served a minute in any branch of the service.

The Real George W., George Washington, warned against getting involved with the affairs of other countries and this idiot that is now President, and his little neocons, planned this war out in the 1990's. The fact is the this administration is INCOMPETENT. That can't be argued.

Please don't tell me about strategies vs. objectives. Let me guess, you never served a day in any branch of the service, but you read a lot of books. LOL.

You're leaving out one small fact ...

.. in the late summer of 2001 our nation was attacked ... with 3,000 Americans murdered and billions of dollars in property destroyed. The enemy who attacked us have made themselves and their objectives well-known ... they want to murder us all and subject the world to their tyrannical rule.

I don't think this was the result of a plot by defense contractors in the 1990's ... when Bill Clinton was president.

[Exceller]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

You're leaving out one small fact ...

.. in the late summer of 2001 our nation was attacked ... with 3,000 Americans murdered and billions of dollars in property destroyed. The enemy who attacked us have made themselves and their objectives well-known ... they want to murder us all and subject the world to their tyrannical rule.

I don't think this was the result of a plot by defense contractors in the 1990's ... when Bill Clinton was president.

No, you are leaving out a fact. Iraq had zero to do with 9-11. ZERO. You seem to forget about the 2500+ and 15,000+ soldiers/marines (few navy too) that have died fighting. This is a neocon war that was planned out in the 1990's. Even people in the military agree with that. The big problem is that now the military is so thinned out that countries like Iran can just laugh at us. A dictator in Iraq was never any threat to the US. Enough with your lies and justifications for this administration. THEY ARE INCOMPETENT. Bill Clinton was an idiot too. I make no excuses for him.

[irishtrekker]

BB, I *live* abroad right now and encounter people from around the world every day who occupy every part of the sociopolitical spectrum. I'm not sure how to convince you that the ordinary person's view of American leadership is incredibly low. It's maddening to be American and to hear what people think of us, but the fact is that we're being held in pretty poor esteem by a majority of people from around the world. Opinion polls or individual conversations - they all indicate the same trend. I wish that weren't the case, but it is...and the best way to annoy a European that I know is to insist that everyone who dislikes America's behavior is some sort of elitist or is delusional. That's the fastest way to shut down a conversation with anyone from anywhere, or to get laughed out of your nearest pub. I'm certainly not saying that no one likes us, or that people won't be polite enough to save your feelings and say you're all right...but I've been here for a year now and have been depressed by the way people talk about us, both in my current country of residence and everywhere I travel. No one respects our current Administration, either, including some avowedly rabid Tories who happen to be my friends.

Originally Posted by irishtrekker

BB, I *live* abroad right now and encounter people from around the world every day who occupy every part of the sociopolitical spectrum. I'm not sure how to convince you that the ordinary person's view of American leadership is incredibly low. It's maddening to be American and to hear what people think of us, but the fact is that we're being held in pretty poor esteem by a majority of people from around the world. Opinion polls or individual conversations - they all indicate the same trend. I wish that weren't the case, but it is...and the best way to annoy a European that I know is to insist that everyone who dislikes America's behavior is some sort of elitist or is delusional. That's the fastest way to shut down a conversation with anyone from anywhere, or to get laughed out of your nearest pub. I'm certainly not saying that no one likes us, or that people won't be polite enough to save your feelings and say you're all right...but I've been here for a year now and have been depressed by the way people talk about us, both in my current country of residence and everywhere I travel. No one respects our current Administration, either, including some avowedly rabid Tories who happen to be my friends.

That hasn't been my experience in 34 trips to western Europe ... but maybe I haven't encountered as many rabid leftists as you have. I'm sure you're honestly relating your experiences ... and I say ...

... So? So what?

We singlehandedly saved Europe ... and most of the rest of the world ... from some of the most brutal, vicious tyrannies that ever existed. If the people whom we saved and their descendants ... who now live in the peace and freedom we created for them ... are ingrates ... why should we have any reaction whatsoever to that? Let them wallow in their ingratitude.

Meanwhile ... however ... they're all dying to come here ... because their native countries suck ... big time ... and they know it better than anyone.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

That hasn't been my experience in 34 trips to western Europe ... but maybe I haven't encountered as many rabid leftists as you have. I'm sure you're honestly relating your experiences ... and I say ...

... So? So what?

We singlehandedly saved Europe ... and most of the rest of the world ... from some of the most brutal, vicious tyrannies that ever existed. If the people whom we saved and their descendants ... who now live in the peace and freedom we created for them ... are ingrates ... why should we have any reaction whatsoever to that? Let them wallow in their ingratitude.

Meanwhile ... however ... they're all dying to come here ... because their native countries suck ... big time ... and they know it better than anyone.

Well, last time I was "abroad" it was to fun places like Nam, Laos, Cambodia...sorta got a mixed reception there, some chicks dug us, some tried to blow us up. I guess my point has always been that this is and hopefully always will be the greatest nation on earth (or anywhere within the United Federation of Planets)...no argument! I'd rather live here than anywhere (well, maybe a month or so in Paris, London and...you get the idea) but that doesn't mean I'm willing to turn a blind eye to problems...and we have a lot! Too much hatred...we always hate those we fear, fear those who are different or who we don't understand. We locked up the Japanese Americans in WWII but let the German Americans walk free, we kept and tortured slaves, committed genocide against the Native Americans...today, we beat up and violate the rights of gays and still hold women back from being truly "equal"! We've still got a lot of work to do to reach the manifestation of the words of the founding fathers. In this, the richest most powerful nation in the history of the world, children go to bed hungry every night, elderly folks are granted a "dignified death" (translation: allowed to die before their time) and babies are slaughtered in their mother's wombs under the lie of "choice"! "Churches" filled with haters picket and shout insults at the funerals of brave Americans who fell in battle cause they died defending a nation that "allows homosexuals to be part of society". And the idiot in the White House (yes, I voted twice for him) is more concerned about flag burning and gay marriage than the suffering of poor folk! Sorry but someone needs to speak out...authority, by it's very nature, needs to be constantly questioned!! More laws, more prisons, more fences at the borders somehow don't seem to be appropriate in "the land of the free"!!

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Well, last time I was "abroad" it was to fun places like Nam, Laos, Cambodia...sorta got a mixed reception there, some chicks dug us, some tried to blow us up. I guess my point has always been that this is and hopefully always will be the greatest nation on earth (or anywhere within the United Federation of Planets)...no argument! I'd rather live here than anywhere (well, maybe a month or so in Paris, London and...you get the idea) but that doesn't mean I'm willing to turn a blind eye to problems...and we have a lot! Too much hatred...we always hate those we fear, fear those who are different or who we don't understand. We locked up the Japanese Americans in WWII but let the German Americans walk free, we kept and tortured slaves, committed genocide against the Native Americans...today, we beat up and violate the rights of gays and still hold women back from being truly "equal"! We've still got a lot of work to do to reach the manifestation of the words of the founding fathers. In this, the richest most powerful nation in the history of the world, children go to bed hungry every night, elderly folks are granted a "dignified death" (translation: allowed to die before their time) and babies are slaughtered in their mother's wombs under the lie of "choice"! "Churches" filled with haters picket and shout insults at the funerals of brave Americans who fell in battle cause they died defending a nation that "allows homosexuals to be part of society". And the idiot in the White House (yes, I voted twice for him) is more concerned about flag burning and gay marriage than the suffering of poor folk! Sorry but someone needs to speak out...authority, by it's very nature, needs to be constantly questioned!! More laws, more prisons, more fences at the borders somehow don't seem to be appropriate in "the land of the free"!!

Much of what you say is sensible ... but some is not.

Slavery is something we inherited from the British colonialists. It was permitted to exist in some states in order to get the union formed ... but was permanently dispatched in relatively quick order ... 75 years after the adoption of the Constitution ... through tremendous sacrifices made by the overwhelmingly decent people of the country. No one alive in America today should feel any shame over it.

The idea that there are masses of children going to bed hungry every night is utter nonsense. The biggest health problem faced by American children today is obesity.

And if and when a homosexual ... or anyone else ... is beaten up ... the legal authorities arrest and prosecute the miscreants as best they can. No individual or group is denied legal protection in America today.

Originally Posted by Exceller

No, you are leaving out a fact. Iraq had zero to do with 9-11. ZERO. You seem to forget about the 2500+ and 15,000+ soldiers/marines (few navy too) that have died fighting. This is a neocon war that was planned out in the 1990's. Even people in the military agree with that. The big problem is that now the military is so thinned out that countries like Iran can just laugh at us. A dictator in Iraq was never any threat to the US. Enough with your lies and justifications for this administration. THEY ARE INCOMPETENT. Bill Clinton was an idiot too. I make no excuses for him.

Whether or not Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 ... the fact is that we're fighting ... and defeating ... the terrorist enemy there instead of here. The terrorists have summoned all their minions to Iraq ... and our professional armed forces are eliminating them.

There hasn't been a single attack on American soil in nearly five years ... thought our sworn enemy would have dearly loved to inflict thousands of them.

Isn't having our best-trained people fight the enemy on their turf a much better strategy ... than having our civilians try to fend them off on our soil?

And if you think there's an alternative to those scenarios ... you have no understanding of the viciousness and determination of the savages we face.