Librarians, Keepers of the Liberty

[Exceller]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Last time I checked, America was a land for all Americans...if we allow Bush and his kind to use fear to strip away basic liberties, only the rich and powerful will have freedom...in the end, we have only those rights that we can defend!

I despise Bush, but liberties have actually been expanded under him. Stop being a self-centered american and look at the world picture. The real problem with Bush is he ruined our military. It isn't our job to go freeing people. Help people free themselves, yes. Do it for them, no. George Washington freed his country with the help of the French, but he did most of the work. This idiot Bush thinks it is our job to free countries. Moron, yes, but a guy who stripped away liberties, that is ridiculous liberal nonsense.

Originally Posted by Exceller

I despise Bush, but liberties have actually been expanded under him. Stop being a self-centered american and look at the world picture. The real problem with Bush is he ruined our military. It isn't our job to go freeing people. Help people free themselves, yes. Do it for them, no. George Washington freed his country with the help of the French, but he did most of the work. This idiot Bush thinks it is our job to free countries. Moron, yes, but a guy who stripped away liberties, that is ridiculous liberal nonsense.

You're confusing strategies and objectives.

The objective ... the overriding goal and the duty of elected officials ... is to safeguard the lives and freedom of Americans.

One of the strategies being used to achieve that objective ... is to foster democratic systems in countries where such systems do not exist ... not simply because that would benefit the peoples of those countries ... although in fact it does ... but because experience over the past two centuries has shown that democratic countries are far less dangerous to us than dictatorial countries are.

Democracy in Iraq isn't an objective ... it's a strategy being used to achieve our objective ... which is safety and freedom for Americans.

[Exceller]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

You're confusing strategies and objectives.

The objective ... the overriding goal and the duty of elected officials ... is to safeguard the lives and freedom of Americans.

One of the strategies being used to achieve that objective ... is to foster democratic systems in countries where such systems do not exist ... not simply because that would benefit the peoples of those countries ... although in fact it does ... but because experience over the past two centuries has shown that democratic countries are far less dangerous to us than dictatorial countries are.

Democracy in Iraq isn't an objective ... it's a strategy being used to achieve our objective ... which is safety and freedom for Americans.

Nonsense. The administration took the advice of shady politicians tied to the defense contractors, instead of listening to their military leaders. They lied, made up false information and weakened our military. Funny how just about all of the architects of the war never served a minute in any branch of the service.

The Real George W., George Washington, warned against getting involved with the affairs of other countries and this idiot that is now President, and his little neocons, planned this war out in the 1990's. The fact is the this administration is INCOMPETENT. That can't be argued.

Please don't tell me about strategies vs. objectives. Let me guess, you never served a day in any branch of the service, but you read a lot of books. LOL.

Originally Posted by Exceller

Nonsense. The administration took the advice of shady politicians tied to the defense contractors, instead of listening to their military leaders. They lied, made up false information and weakened our military. Funny how just about all of the architects of the war never served a minute in any branch of the service.

The Real George W., George Washington, warned against getting involved with the affairs of other countries and this idiot that is now President, and his little neocons, planned this war out in the 1990's. The fact is the this administration is INCOMPETENT. That can't be argued.

Please don't tell me about strategies vs. objectives. Let me guess, you never served a day in any branch of the service, but you read a lot of books. LOL.

You're leaving out one small fact ...

.. in the late summer of 2001 our nation was attacked ... with 3,000 Americans murdered and billions of dollars in property destroyed. The enemy who attacked us have made themselves and their objectives well-known ... they want to murder us all and subject the world to their tyrannical rule.

I don't think this was the result of a plot by defense contractors in the 1990's ... when Bill Clinton was president.

[Exceller]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

You're leaving out one small fact ...

.. in the late summer of 2001 our nation was attacked ... with 3,000 Americans murdered and billions of dollars in property destroyed. The enemy who attacked us have made themselves and their objectives well-known ... they want to murder us all and subject the world to their tyrannical rule.

I don't think this was the result of a plot by defense contractors in the 1990's ... when Bill Clinton was president.

No, you are leaving out a fact. Iraq had zero to do with 9-11. ZERO. You seem to forget about the 2500+ and 15,000+ soldiers/marines (few navy too) that have died fighting. This is a neocon war that was planned out in the 1990's. Even people in the military agree with that. The big problem is that now the military is so thinned out that countries like Iran can just laugh at us. A dictator in Iraq was never any threat to the US. Enough with your lies and justifications for this administration. THEY ARE INCOMPETENT. Bill Clinton was an idiot too. I make no excuses for him.

[irishtrekker]

BB, I *live* abroad right now and encounter people from around the world every day who occupy every part of the sociopolitical spectrum. I'm not sure how to convince you that the ordinary person's view of American leadership is incredibly low. It's maddening to be American and to hear what people think of us, but the fact is that we're being held in pretty poor esteem by a majority of people from around the world. Opinion polls or individual conversations - they all indicate the same trend. I wish that weren't the case, but it is...and the best way to annoy a European that I know is to insist that everyone who dislikes America's behavior is some sort of elitist or is delusional. That's the fastest way to shut down a conversation with anyone from anywhere, or to get laughed out of your nearest pub. I'm certainly not saying that no one likes us, or that people won't be polite enough to save your feelings and say you're all right...but I've been here for a year now and have been depressed by the way people talk about us, both in my current country of residence and everywhere I travel. No one respects our current Administration, either, including some avowedly rabid Tories who happen to be my friends.

Originally Posted by irishtrekker

BB, I *live* abroad right now and encounter people from around the world every day who occupy every part of the sociopolitical spectrum. I'm not sure how to convince you that the ordinary person's view of American leadership is incredibly low. It's maddening to be American and to hear what people think of us, but the fact is that we're being held in pretty poor esteem by a majority of people from around the world. Opinion polls or individual conversations - they all indicate the same trend. I wish that weren't the case, but it is...and the best way to annoy a European that I know is to insist that everyone who dislikes America's behavior is some sort of elitist or is delusional. That's the fastest way to shut down a conversation with anyone from anywhere, or to get laughed out of your nearest pub. I'm certainly not saying that no one likes us, or that people won't be polite enough to save your feelings and say you're all right...but I've been here for a year now and have been depressed by the way people talk about us, both in my current country of residence and everywhere I travel. No one respects our current Administration, either, including some avowedly rabid Tories who happen to be my friends.

That hasn't been my experience in 34 trips to western Europe ... but maybe I haven't encountered as many rabid leftists as you have. I'm sure you're honestly relating your experiences ... and I say ...

... So? So what?

We singlehandedly saved Europe ... and most of the rest of the world ... from some of the most brutal, vicious tyrannies that ever existed. If the people whom we saved and their descendants ... who now live in the peace and freedom we created for them ... are ingrates ... why should we have any reaction whatsoever to that? Let them wallow in their ingratitude.

Meanwhile ... however ... they're all dying to come here ... because their native countries suck ... big time ... and they know it better than anyone.

Originally Posted by Exceller

No, you are leaving out a fact. Iraq had zero to do with 9-11. ZERO. You seem to forget about the 2500+ and 15,000+ soldiers/marines (few navy too) that have died fighting. This is a neocon war that was planned out in the 1990's. Even people in the military agree with that. The big problem is that now the military is so thinned out that countries like Iran can just laugh at us. A dictator in Iraq was never any threat to the US. Enough with your lies and justifications for this administration. THEY ARE INCOMPETENT. Bill Clinton was an idiot too. I make no excuses for him.

Whether or not Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 ... the fact is that we're fighting ... and defeating ... the terrorist enemy there instead of here. The terrorists have summoned all their minions to Iraq ... and our professional armed forces are eliminating them.

There hasn't been a single attack on American soil in nearly five years ... thought our sworn enemy would have dearly loved to inflict thousands of them.

Isn't having our best-trained people fight the enemy on their turf a much better strategy ... than having our civilians try to fend them off on our soil?

And if you think there's an alternative to those scenarios ... you have no understanding of the viciousness and determination of the savages we face.